Business Builders Podcast

Mastering Non Verbal Communication

• Brenton Gowland & Ron Tomlian • Season 4 • Episode 66

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In this episode, we explore the crucial role of nonverbal communication in professional settings, examining how body language, facial expressions, and even silence can shape relationships and decision-making in business. Whether you’re in a high-stakes meeting or a casual conversation, understanding these unspoken signals helps you truly grasp what’s being communicated and ensures you respond effectively.


Key Topics:

  • Nonverbal Cues: Why nonverbal communication is as important as verbal exchanges in the workplace.
  • Body Language: Tips on interpreting and using body language to convey confidence and trustworthiness.
  • Facial Expressions: Insights into controlling your expressions to maintain professionalism and understand others’ emotions.
  • The Power of Silence: How strategic use of silence can enhance negotiations and decision-making.
  • Real-Life Applications: Examples of how nonverbal communication has influenced outcomes in business scenarios.
  • Personal Stories: The hosts share experiences where nonverbal cues played a pivotal role in their professional lives.


Takeaway Message:
Mastering nonverbal communication can enhance your professional relationships and decision-making, making it an essential skill for business success.


Next Episode Preview:
In the next episode, we’ll explore the art of active listening and how it can further improve your interactions and business outcomes.

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Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Business Builders Podcast. Until next time, KEEP ON BUILDING !!

Brenton Gowland:

Hey there Business Builders, imagine being in a meeting where the atmosphere was so charged you could feel it and your next move was crucial. It's moments like these when you wish you could read minds. Well, maybe you can. Today, we're talking about nonverbal communication, where body language, facial expressions, and even the silence in the room can affect your professional relationships and your decision making. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts. I am Brenton Gowland

Ron Tomlian:

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

And Ron, we're right in the middle of our effective communication series. If you're just joining us, we've done about five episodes so far. We launched the series with an overview, then we talked about the art of listening, followed by the five essential questions every leader should ask. We also had special guest Mark Williams, an expert PR consultant, who spoke with us about being prepared for crises. And our last episode was about difficult conversations. So today we're discussing non verbal communication. Do you want to tell us more about that?

Ron Tomlian:

Ron, well, a lot of people think communication is all about the words you use, but there's plenty of research, and we'll talk about the research that was done quite a while ago to say that actually we gain meaning. We gain an idea of what people are talking about, not just from the words, but from the way they deliver those words, and from the way they are present in delivering those words. And in fact, a lot more communication comes from that. So it's important that people in business understand that when you communicate, it's not just the words you use, it's how you deliver those words.

Brenton Gowland:

Excellent, and so that's what we're going to talk about today. So if you've joined us the effective communication series, the reason we chose to do this is because communication is an absolute foundation of doing everything in business, to the point that I do marketing. And so marketing, obviously, is a very communication centric business discipline, but when we analyze other business disciplines, I would say that 90% of other business disciplines, like CEO, Chief, operating officer, managers, frontline workers, one of the key things in every role, or every one of those roles, is communication. Absolutely. I mean when you think about organizations, organizations about more than one person doing something, and the only way you can coordinate the activities of more than one person is by communicating, whether that's verbal communication or whatever. Yeah. And if you go into the HR space again, that becomes communication, and that's where this nonverbal communication starts to play a loud role. And if you want a real simple example, I like to

Ron Tomlian:

paint a loud role

Brenton Gowland:

very well. Yeah, there you go. It's interesting that the words we use also paint pictures, not exactly, precisely the way those words are intended to be used, but you can paint pictures, much like non verbal communication. Can tell us a story.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, you know, the whole communication process starts with us coming up with an idea, and a lot of times, those ideas are not in verbal format. They're a feeling, they're a concept. They're a formulation of neurons firing. And to get that across to somebody else, even to formulate we have to take that concept, take that idea, and put it into a verbal format. And so we have to take the meaning and convey it in some way, and words are not the only way to do that.

Brenton Gowland:

I think that's why video has become so huge, the fact that we can see and get cues from the way people are in those videos, I always liked when I would talk to client and we'd be planning on how to do their marketing. One of the things I would always push for is to try and get video testimonials or video case studies, where we could show the client speaking, because then you can see their eyes, and when you can see their eyes, the way they move, the way they talk, it says a lot more than the words, which is going to be interesting for today's conversation.

Ron Tomlian:

There's a reason that there's an expression of the sort of truism that everyone agrees with actions speak louder than words, because we take so much more from activity and the way people do things and what they do than just what they say. And so we take more from other sources of information than we do just from the words.

Brenton Gowland:

And I guess the reason we're talking about this is just to highlight how important communication is in each of our professional roles, personal lives, etc, etc, but non verbal communication massively important, which is why we're talking about it today. So can you start by giving us a definition to. Of non verbal communication?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, really, it's pretty simple. It's everything that the words aren't. It's, it's all the things we do associated with communicating that I aren't encompassed by the words that we use. Yeah, I really like that. So it's, it's body language, it's facial expressions, it's gestures, posture, it's eye contact, tone of voice, use of space, just your appearance. I mean, when you walk into a room, you are saying something, by the way you look, without ever having to say anything. That's why brands work. That's your field. Association with a brand is, is saying something about yourself without having to say anything about yourself, because people look to the clothes you wear, the car you drive, all that sort of thing. So all of those things are speaking to people long before the words leave your mouth.

Brenton Gowland:

What I talk with people about brands a lot is controlling the perception of the brand in the market, and the perception is again, a non verbal construct in people's minds. It's how they perceive the brand to be. And sometimes it doesn't matter what the reality is, but what's really important is how they perceive the brand, and that's built through multiple different layers of communication, some of which, well, a lot of which actually includes non verbal communication.

Ron Tomlian:

And most people, not all, but most people tend to be visually oriented. They gain a huge amount of their information about the their daily lives. When you're driving a car, most of the information you're getting to be able to navigate comes from visual cues, the things that are happening around you. The truth of the matter is that's also happening when we're communicating with people, we tend to think, and unfortunately, because of the mediums that we're increasingly using for communication, like texts, like social media, that the words themselves are so critical that and they are but that's all.

Brenton Gowland:

There was an article in a local newspaper The advertiser, think it was yesterday, from a PR guy in town that was talking about, Is it rude to just ring someone to have a conversation in today's age? Should we not send them a text first or plan the conversation? Is just ringing someone out of the blue, a rude thing now and expecting to talk.

Ron Tomlian:

Interesting, interesting. I mean, I have to admit, I get a lot of spam phone calls nowadays, and I don't answer any numbers.

Brenton Gowland:

There's a there's a trick with an iPhone that I learned recently. Oh yeah, you can basically silence unknown calls. So if they're not listed in your phone under a specific number, it will put them straight through to message bank, and therefore, if they leave a message, I will go and listen to them and go, oh yeah, that's someone I should call if there's no message, either they'll find another way to contact me or at spam, because it's that prevalent. It's a shame, really.

Ron Tomlian:

So again, that goes to the fact that a lot of times people are focusing on the words they're using. And again, that is a part of the communication, but it's not all of it.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so, can you give us a breakdown, then, of the impact of non verbal communication versus verbal communication? Yes, I can. Well, I knew because we had a conversation beforehand. So,

Ron Tomlian:

So. And this is something, this isn't something that's new. This was done by a guy called Dr Robert Mehrabian back in late 1960s.

Brenton Gowland:

Robert Barabian.

Ron Tomlian:

Mehrabian.

Brenton Gowland:

Mehrabian. I gotcha.

Ron Tomlian:

And it's been replicated and added upon and disputed. But the basic percentages that I'm going to quote, I have been fairly robustly upheld over the years in terms of research. He did research to say, Okay, how much of the meaning we gain and understanding of what people are trying to communicate, how much of that is in the words they use, versus everything else, and the everything else is things like tone of voice, loudness, everything that can come out of our mouths, and then everything else, that's the body language, the facial expressions, the gestures, the appearance, right? So he did, he did research, and he did it in such a way that it was sort of contradictory. So he what? He got people to say things, but say them in such a way that the opposite could be interpreted because of their facial expressions or their tone of voice.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so you're saying words that mean yes, but your expressions are meaning no.

Ron Tomlian:

Exactly, and then ask for an interpretation. What does this person really mean from the subjects? So what came out of it was a rough percentage of how much is associated with the words we use versus the way we say those words, versus everything else, the facial expressions, the body language. Which is So, yeah, great. And it came up with these percentages. And this often people find quite confusing or quite surprising. I should say, the majority of information that we gather about what a person means when they're they're talking to us, comes from their body language, right? And when you think about the face, we often look to the face to try and interpret what people are really meeting, yes. So the face, the gestures, the stance, how close they are to us, physical proximity, their appearance, all gives us about 55% of the meeting, 55 so over half of the money and share, yes, over half of the meaning that we get from other people in terms of what they're trying to tell us comes from the physicality of what they're saying to us. The 38% comes from tone of voice. And here, the tone of voice volume all the things that happen as a result of our actual speaking, only 7% come from the words themselves. Only 7% of the meaning come from the words themselves.

Brenton Gowland:

Like I said this morning, that's pretty surprising. I thought it would have been higher, not unexpected, but surprising.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. And when you think about it, I think everyone has received an email or a text, and the words are very clear, and you think, what the heck were they trying to say? And when I talk about this with my university classes or or other people that I'm talking to about communication, I often use this line, and I'm going to have to, because we're on a podcast, I can't write it out for people, but they could maybe write the sentence down. And imagine you've just received an email, and the words on the email say, I didn't say he stole the pen.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay. I didn't say he stole the pen.

Ron Tomlian:

No you have to do it in a very monotone voice. I didn't say he stole the pen, which is how you would receive it on a text with an email. What does that mean?

Brenton Gowland:

Well exactly what it says that I didn't say he stole the pen. No, okay, I can see where you gonna go with this.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, so let's suppose you receive that email from me and what the heck is Ron talking about? And you called me up. It says this person, you called me up and say, Ron, I didn't understand your email. I would say to you, look, it's very clear, and repeat the sentence. Now, depending on where I put the emphasis on those words, the whole meaning changes. Yeah, I gotcha. So if, for the instance, I said I didn't say he stole the pen.

Brenton Gowland:

Means you've been accused and you're trying to get yourself.

Ron Tomlian:

If I say I didn't say he stole the pen, or I didn't say he stole the pen, versus I didn't say he stole the pen. Well, I didn't say he stole the pen, or I would say to you on the phone, I didn't say he stole the pen. The emphasis on each of those words, which is part of our tonality, will give you a different interpretation of what I meant. Just the words themselves.

Brenton Gowland:

That's a great sentence for that.

Ron Tomlian:

It gets across. The fact that a simple sentence, and it is a fairly simple sentence, can be interpreted in different ways. The thing I try and emphasize to people, if all you're using is mechanisms or mediums that have just the words in them, you have to use more words to get the meaning across. And people often write like they speak.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, this is why lawyers documents are so onerous. Yes, exactly, right.

Ron Tomlian:

So the important thing that I try to get across the people is when you want to get meaning across succinctly, it's often better to give them a phone call, or, even better, to talk to them in person. Why? Because so much of that meaning comes from the tonality of the voice and the body language. And if having received that email, come into my office or come to see me and ask me about that question or about that statement, then it would be so much easier for you to interpret what I meant by asking to repeat it in person, and that means that we lose a lot of meaning when we are not in the physical presence of other people, or we don't have the opportunity to use our voice to express things.

Brenton Gowland:

All right, that's a really good example. So let's go then you were talking about tonality, of course, and you're saying that tonality is, in a sense, not a verbal cue. It's a non verbal cue. Is that what you're saying?

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, that's right. It's a well, in the sense that it's not something that comes from the words that we're using.

Brenton Gowland:

Oh, okay, so tonality.

Ron Tomlian:

So tonality is one thing, but it's also things like what I call vocal variety. Okay, so volume is one thing. If I'm speaking really quietly, it says something about what I'm saying versus speaking really loudly.

Brenton Gowland:

And that can come under the tonality bucket.

Ron Tomlian:

Well again, vocal variety, the tone that I use, the emphasis I put on words. How much pause people often use fillers when they're speaking to people, ums, AHS, your nose. And I'm incredibly guilty of that. But using pauses can give greater emphasis, like I just did there. Very well done. Yeah, so there's all sorts of things. PACE is another one. You know, if I start to speak really quickly, some things can be interpreted by the fact that I'm speaking really quickly, versus slowing it down, which gives greater emphasis. All of those things are being examined by the person who's trying to interpret what you're saying. So that that they can, they can understand what you are trying to say, what the meaning that's coming across. So it's not just the tone, it's the it's the full variety of things that happen as a result of the way we speak to people.

Brenton Gowland:

Alright. Well, let's break this down. So we've got body language at What did you say 55%

Ron Tomlian:

That's right.

Brenton Gowland:

You've got tone at 38%. That's right. And today we're not speaking about the 7% which is?

Ron Tomlian:

The content, the words themselves.

Brenton Gowland:

So let's look at body language first. Okay, let's talk about what are the components of body language? Obviously, you were talking about face, but what else does it make up?

Ron Tomlian:

It can be things like eye contact, level of eye contact. It can be things like your physical gestures, not just your facial gestures, physical gestures, how much you use your arms, how much you use your body, what sort of stance you've adopted, whether you're sitting, whether you're standing, the type of movement that you're going through, leaning in as an example, moving away, putting your hands behind your heads. All those things give an indication, because we tend to do these things unconsciously. We tend not to think about these things, but they happen as a result of our body using an expression to try and tell people something else, sometimes unconsciously. The typical one that is often referred to as someone rolling their eyes, and that that says volumes to people, you roll your eyes, and oftentimes people find that unconsciously that they've rolled their eyes. It says a lot about what you just said, or your reaction to what somebody else has said, than the words that you actually use. That is probably the best example that you can come across. Someone smiles, someone smirks, someone looks away. All those things are interpreted, and sometimes we don't even intend for those things to happen. Really, what we're talking about when we're talking about nonverbal communication is two roles that people play. One role is I'm trying to communicate something. What are people using to interpret what I'm saying, and do I have control over all the information that they are receiving because of what I'm doing? Or do I not have control over that? In other words, am I giving out signals that I don't intend but are coming across to other people, and there's also the other side. Is the receiver? How am I gaining information about what this person is saying? And am I looking? We talked about listening a few weeks ago, and we really were talking about, to some extent, the words, but we also talked about listening with your eyes. That's what we were referring to, is the fact that so much information, the vast majority of the information that you can gain about what someone's saying is not coming from the words they're using, but is coming from the tonality of their voice and from their physicality, how they're expressing themselves physically at the time, and a lot more information comes across that way. A lot more of the true meaning comes across that way, unless the person themselves is not communicating effectively.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, that's where we spoke about in the episode a couple episodes ago, the five essential questions every leader should ask. The fifth one was really an assessment where it was when you've had a conversation, ask yourself three questions to assess the conversation, what was said, what was heard and what was meant, and that was an assessment criteria to analyze conversations that you've had. So that speaks about taking. In all those cues you were just talking about.

Ron Tomlian:

And we tend to do this all quite quickly and unconsciously, maybe not so analytically as we should what? And quite frankly, some of us are quite good at this, and some of us are not. And doesn't mean you can't get better. But oftentimes checking between people, what did you hear in that conversation?

Brenton Gowland:

So what I'm hearing is, on a very basic level, that there are two modes that we can apply to our body language. One is positive reinforcement of whatever message that we are trying to convey, and in a simplified way, one is a negative reinforcement about what we're hearing, meaning we're giving away things we don't want to be giving away through our body language. That's right. So we're either reinforcing our message that is within us that we're trying to communicate, or we are giving away things that we really don't want.

Ron Tomlian:

Or that diminish the message we're trying to give across. If we're trying to convince them that they're important to us, but we scoff at something that they say, you know, or something like that, then what we're doing is saying, Yes, I'm saying this, and maybe I want for you to think that, but I'm giving some indication, maybe unconsciously, maybe unintentionally, that I'm not sincere, I'm not genuine about that. Now, I suppose the best one is, I'm really interested in what you have to say, but I'm distracted and I'm doing a whole bunch of other things. Says exactly the opposite.

Brenton Gowland:

Tell me something, where did clothes fit into this? Because I would say clothes are part of our body language, the way we dress.

Ron Tomlian:

Our appearance. I mean, there's, again, plenty of research that shows that your first impressions, impression we make the first time we meet someone, which is all about how we turn up. That's our clothes, that's our hairstyle, that's our grooming, that's our stance.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, I'll take it one further. That's our car. So I have this friend who's in property, and this person owns a really good car, their dream car, right? Whatever car that is, they have another car to rock up to property inspections and auctions and all those things, which is, I think, a Toyota, really, you know, a nice, moderate car, but let's just say they don't rock up in the Porsche because they don't want to give the impression that they are making too much money. And I've heard that in so many different arenas. I've also been around business people who have bought more expensive cars to rock up in a car so that they look the part when they arrive, from the moment they arrive, they're telling a story. What my possessions say about me. This is the whole branding thing. Remember how I was talking about we manage perception? Yeah, absolutely. Our own personal brand, which we'll get to another day. And we've talked about personal brand before in the podcast series, is an extension of everything you're talking about. So it's body language or what, what we can derive or learn or listen to about someone. It starts before they walk in the door. It starts with the way the meetings were arranged. It starts with,

Ron Tomlian:

It starts with the reputation they had before we've even met them. Oh, 100% which, which all comes to a form of communication. That's why a lot of people will talk about any your LinkedIn profile is so important.

Brenton Gowland:

What's that saying? Reputation takes you years to build, moments to destroy, absolutely. So yes, so we've got those two levels that you were talking about now. How about before? Because we want to get on to the role of the tone of voice. You want to what are some good tips that we can take? Because Business Builders podcast is all about practical tips. What kind of tips would you give to people about improving their body language awareness and control?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, it's about, in the first place, being aware that you are communicating, regardless of whether you're controlling it or not. So the more you can be aware of how you look, how you are coming across, asking people, getting people to reflect. As an example, we're going to talk about this later in terms of presentations, I would fill myself. We've got a device every one of us virtually nowadays, as a device that we can use to record the way we look when we talk to other people.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, I'll give you another example. Podcast. We record this all the time. We listen to ourselves. I have to cut out the ums and ahs. Some people might not think we do them, but we do but I've got to a point now where, and it's through editing. What are we up to? 65 podcasts. I've got up to this point now where I literally think, if I'm aware, I think about every word I say now, and I I don't talk as quick a lot, because I. I now really assess what I'm going to say before it comes out of my mouth, and that's taken, what's that? Four years of podcasts. We only do one every two weeks. But the point is that when you record yourself, you see these things. I've did a presentation on AI to a group of finance brokers. A little while ago, I stuck a video camera up in the corner and recorded the whole thing, watched it, and I was horrified by certain things I said and not Finishing Sentences. And I spoke to the people who put it on, they were like, No, you were fantastic. And I thought to myself, I was okay. I could have been a lot better, but now I'm watching that first time I watched it, I got to tell you when you when you record yourself and you watch it back, get ready to cringe. And I say this to people, not so that they get horrified, but if. You got to push through the cringe, yeah, because it's very useful. Once you get used to watching yourself, if you

Ron Tomlian:

want to get better, there is no better way than to watch yourself and see what you do.

Brenton Gowland:

And be prepared for confronting scenes.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, absolutely.

Brenton Gowland:

That's a great tip, by the way.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, it's about increasing your awareness of the way you're communicating. Yes. And it's also the other side of the coin as a receiver. It's looking for those cues and being aware that sometimes you can get contradictory information from people you know, the typical one, your negative cues that you can send out like crossing your arms, yes, that might be that the person might be giving away information.

Brenton Gowland:

And be aware that sometimes crossing your arms can also be a reinforcement of your message, depending on what you want a community?

Ron Tomlian:

It could just be the person's cold. Yeah, we're experiencing a really cold snap at the moment in Adelaide, and quite frankly, a lot of people are walking around with their arms folded because it is cold.

Brenton Gowland:

I'm wearing a jacket while we're doing this, and it isn't a suit jacket. It's a big, puffy mountain jacket.

Ron Tomlian:

So again, looking for, how am I interpreting what these people are saying? Am I getting better at it? Am I looking for the information other than the words they're saying?

Brenton Gowland:

Well, yeah, I really like that, though, the awareness, recording yourself, listening to yourself, building your own awareness. I think that's great.

Ron Tomlian:

Of yourself and others. Yeah, doing, doing some analysis. You know, a lot of people I've come across walk out of a meeting, and they have very different interpretations of what have just happened.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

Having a discussion.

Brenton Gowland:

That goes back to that question set we asked earlier, what was said, what was heard, what was meant.

Ron Tomlian:

Having a discussion with other people, what was said? What did you hear, and what do you think they meant? And getting better at interpreting the situation.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, a way again, a part of the awareness or building awareness, could be sitting down and reflecting on things, even if you haven't recorded it.

Ron Tomlian:

And I think that's a skill that hasn't been emphasized enough nowadays. We we tend to be so busy we don't spend enough time reflecting on sometimes you only need five minutes, but it's spending that five minutes and doing it regularly. The cats, Yeah,

Brenton Gowland:

agreed. I was listening to a podcast the other day. I remember which one, because I listened to a lot, and someone was mentioning the fact that you got to build time into your week just to stare at the sky, or just to, in a sense, allow yourself not to think. And that does exactly the opposite. It gives you clarity about a lot of things just by letting things soak in, focusing on something that's completely different.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, the subconscious mind is a lot bigger than a conscious mind. We can only focus on so many things consciously.

Brenton Gowland:

The shower is my best place to go.

Ron Tomlian:

And most people have experiences where they have become aware that by letting things go and not thinking, they suddenly come up with an idea. That's because the subconscious mind is working all the time. It's just we don't focus on it, and we can focus on almost by necessity.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so that's enough said on that. Let's move on to tone of voice.

Ron Tomlian:

As I said before, there's a whole bunch of ways of increasing the variety and increasing the emphasis helping people to understand what you're talking about by the way you're saying it, as I talked about before giving pause is a great way of emphasizing certain things. Whereas most people feel that they've got to fill gaps, there's an expression, let the silence do the heavy lifting, love that leave things unsaid for a little while. There's a lot of meaning that sometimes comes from silence when people aren't saying things, and this is one of the expressions that is often used in interpretation. Don't only listen to what's said, Listen to what's not being said. What are the things that people aren't saying? But you can maybe interpret from their body language.

Brenton Gowland:

That is a real thread that's kind. Through here at the moment, listen to what's not being said.

Ron Tomlian:

Not being said. Are there uncomfortable questions that should have been asked, that weren't asked? There's pauses, there's pace, there's the points of punch or emphasis? Now, what words do I emphasize with volume or with enthusiasm? And people know when you're enthusiastic about something, usually, as an example, your pace increases, your volume increases.

Brenton Gowland:

There's a sparkle in your eyes.

Ron Tomlian:

There's a sparkle in your eyes, you become very animated. People also know when something seems to be quite unimpressive or boring for you again, by the way that you're expressing yourself, by the pace that you're using, by the level of disinterest you're showing through your tonality. So all of these things come across in the non verbal tone of voice, and it's important to understand again, how you're coming across. Are you giving the emphases? Are you giving the meaning you want? This often happens, and I see it way too often in presentations or even in in face to face communications. When people think the important thing are the words that I'm using, they read now, unfortunately, unless you've been trained, reading can be a great way of people misinterpreting what you're saying, because when you read, most people read verbally as they read on a page, and usually when we're reading on a page and we're reading silently, we just scan the words and the meaning comes into our heads, and we try to get through it as quickly as possible. Is a great emphasis on being able to read quickly. But unfortunately, reading quickly with your eyes is not the same benefit as reading quickly when you are vocalizing those words. So when people start to read, they often start reading as quickly as they possibly can without thinking of, where do I need to put the emphasis here? And especially if the grammar in the written word isn't that emphatic, then a lot of the meaning can be lost because we're reading something rather than thinking about, where should I put the emphasis?

Brenton Gowland:

I think a lot of that's going to come when we discuss presentations, because if I was doing that in a presentation, or I'd have anything to hold it would be very succinct. Dot points that don't hold tone. They just cover off on what needs to be conveyed.

Ron Tomlian:

And that's a technique we'll talk about next time. But again, reading can be the death of tonality. So either get good at learning how to read with emphasis that's scanning ahead and all the sort of tips and tricks that really good readers, like news readers, for example, although even they often fall into a monotone voice or try not to read, use notes, use dot points so that you can fill in the words we don't speak like the words that are written.

Brenton Gowland:

I remember I gave you that example when we were talking about this episode earlier, we used to do this innovation exercise within businesses where we would invite ideas from people, and we found and we trained people who were receiving the ideas to answer in the correct way. Because if someone comes up to you who's maybe a worker from the factory floor, and they've come across an idea, whether it's great or not for them to share, that is often them stepping out of their comfort zone. So when they come to you and they say, Well, you know, this campaign we've got going to get ideas from everyone across the business. I've got an idea. And if you turn around as their manager or whatever, and you go, really tell me about that, that way that they say that could cause that person to not convey the idea correctly, because they might get fear, or they might feel that, oh, gosh, what? What's this person going to think? But if that person turned around and went, really, that's great. Tell me about that same words, basically, that encourages them to be excited about sharing the idea. So actually getting the full benefit of an innovation campaign within a business was often determined by the encouragement that we gave them, through the way we presented information, through the way we spoke, through the way we interacted with the people who gave ideas as to whether we actually got to hear what they were really thinking and were able to make Use of those ideas in the best possible way.

Ron Tomlian:

Absolutely. And I think it's important to say at this point that people need to be sensitive to the fact that there are cultural differences that determine the emphasis of non verbal communication. I mean, just one we were talking about before, in body language, eye contact. In some cultures, eye contact is a form of disrespect, depending on status, exactly. So interpreting without context, what someone is doing in terms of their body language is dangerous.

Brenton Gowland:

Thus it brings us back to awareness, which you were talking about earlier, exactly. So you got to be aware of who your audience is, what their social norms are.

Ron Tomlian:

And when I talk about cultural differences, I'm not just talking about country of origin cultural differences. It could be organizational culture.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, here's one. I used to work a lot in ag, the way you talk to a farmer is very different to the way you talk to a business person, because of what was going on with them, we learned that you couldn't go to a certain area and talk to every farmer openly about the same thing, because their competitors were their next door neighbors, so they were very guarded and very different culturally. And farmers are just down the road. They're not from a different country, different industry, cultural norms. So if you went and spoke to defense versus finance, different cultural norms.

Ron Tomlian:

And awareness of those are preparing yourself for.

Brenton Gowland:

Let's call them industry norms.

Ron Tomlian:

It could be societal level norms as well. So it's your economic it could be status.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, there's a lot to be said for awareness.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. As an example, working within universities, there are cultural norms associated with academic staff versus students.

Brenton Gowland:

I think we could talk about this for a very, very long time, because I think if you're listening, you get the idea that there's many threads behind the scenes when we talk to someone about the things that influence how they interpret what is said and what is not said. So because we have to move this along, I want to then bring us to the point of, how do we then integrate non verbal cues in communication? So when we communicate with other people. How do we start, in an aware and deliberate fashion, integrating into our conversation to be able to get a point across and communicate effectively, as per this series, how do we integrate nonverbal communication Ron?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, I think it comes down to one awareness and intention, okay, and when I say intention, in other words, we have to be intentional. I want to get across enthusiasm. So what are the things that help me seem enthusiastic or be enthusiastic about something? And I'm sure there are people who are great at acting this stuff. They can fake it, but I think for the Average Joe like you and I, I think it comes down to mindset. When we go into having a conversation, if we want to be helpful, having a mindset that I want to be helpful to someone will help us use the power of the unconscious and gestures and so on that we don't necessarily want to be rigid about controlling will help us use those gestures and the facial expressions and so on that convey that meaning to other people.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, that's good. So that's a lot like when we do vision mission values with a company, we want to embed that into people so that the values within the company drive our behavior. So what you're saying is the mindset that we bring is like bringing, not necessarily a value set, but it's like bringing your thinking to the equation. And so non verbal actions or cues in a conversation, which could often be subconscious, yeah, are aligned. That's correct, right? That's That's good, okay, so that's one way of integrating. Say, that's almost like a foundational level, because we also talk about being deliberate, right? Absolutely, being deliberate. Yeah, we go in with a mindset. So the mindset will bring a non verbal communication with us, if it's the correct mindset that's right. But then there's also that extra layer of going, how do I plan?

Ron Tomlian:

And that's really what I was trying to get across when I was talking about intention, right? If I only have one shot at this, what are the things that I interpret from other people that I can use to help them interpret what I'm trying to get across? And again, it can be things like my appearance. It can be things like not controlling my facial expressions, but being aware of them at any given time. It can be being aware of my tone of voice, aware of how I respond to other people, aware of the volume that I'm using. From a personal experience, sometimes I come across as quite angry to people because of the volume. Now, in my case, it's oftentimes I become excited the volume goes up, and their interpretation is, well, that's actually sounding a little bit angry.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, it's interesting, right? Because in PR circles, they do media training. And the whole point of media training is to make sure that you convey the right message and that you don't give anything away. And that comes down to the way you hold yourself through all these things. And what they do is they video record you and play it back and then get you to do it again. And, of course, give you the training. But they video record you and play you back multiple times to make sure that when you're standing in front of a camera, you don't provide any sound bites that could be exactly the opposite to what you're trying to say.

Ron Tomlian:

They also train you, and that this is part of it, because they know that media people who are interviewing are aware that they can trigger you, and so to train you to be less triggering when they ask a certain type of question or when they probe in a certain way.

Brenton Gowland:

Which will happen in business meetings if you're meeting a skillful person. On the other side, I have a friend in finance who can remain nameless, who actually goes into initial conversations and specifically tries to be jokey and chatty, and comes in dressed in sneakers and jeans rather than a suit, when all the other finance people dress in suits, and he tries to get them so relaxed that they'll give away things, not about the deal, but about what kind of person they are. Because he says, I want to deal with people I know that I can build a trusting relationship with, and I probe them initially and try to get them so loose that they'll tell me things that reveal what the characters like. And I was like, wow, that's very smart.

Ron Tomlian:

And there's someone who is now using, in a in a quite considered way, the power of being able to extract information from other people without them necessarily even being aware.

Brenton Gowland:

He's building a character profile on someone to work out if there's someone he wants to do business with, by completely getting them as comfortable as possible to reveal their true self.

Ron Tomlian:

And I've seen people who know the rules of engagement, if you like, and go outside those rules intentionally to put other people at ill ease so that they can get their way. I would say that's being in genuine but we all need to be aware that there are people out there who are able and capable of doing that.

Brenton Gowland:

If you've been in business long enough, you've met plenty of them. Is there. There's a lot of them around.

Ron Tomlian:

And if you have anything to do with the media, you know that sensationalism tends to work, and they are trying to trigger people into saying things.

Brenton Gowland:

They say, I will tell you lots of stories. They say, if it bleeds, it leads.

Ron Tomlian:

Being aware of that. And if you're going to be the person in front of the media, you'd better be aware that that is probably going to happen to you. I've fallen followed that a number of times over my many years. So I try and stay away from that situation nowadays. But if you have to, if you're a business person who has to front for their organization, it's best to be aware before that happens, that this could be something that you're putting yourself in actually.

Brenton Gowland:

You know, there is a very good example of that. Can you think of anyone who's been triggered by an interviewer or a media person recently and then has had to quit their job?

Ron Tomlian:

Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Brenton Gowland:

If you don't know what we're talking about. I mean, this has been all over the news. Peter Costello, who was the chairman of Channel Nine, I think it was from the Australian newspaper a journalist intercept him at the airport, and that can be quite confronting, but Peter lost his temper and ended up shoving this reporter, and he ended up on the ground. The reason they got so up in arms about it is because Mr. Costello is the chairman of a media company who purports to respect journalists, and he's done exactly the opposite, but he was triggered, and that was the story, and they got it.

Ron Tomlian:

That's what I'm talking about. So business people need to be aware that this is happening, not just by the media, but it's happening in interactions. So the more I can be aware of the way I'm coming across, and the more I can be aware of the way other people are giving me information, or can potentially give me information, the better I'm going to be to be in a more effective communicator, both ways, as a receiver and as a sender.

Brenton Gowland:

Great. So is there anything else before we start wrapping up on integrating nonverbal cues in communication?

Ron Tomlian:

No, I'm very happy that if you come from that position of mindset, mindset and self awareness and look, we aren't going to get it right all the time, but going back to what we talked about before, reflecting on the communications that we've had gives us the capacity to learn and improve.

Brenton Gowland:

And as you said, we've all got the tools. I would highly recommend that you reflect, but you video yourself often, and video you practice, rehearse, rehearse a meaning, rehearse what you're going to do. We'll talk about presentations in the next episode, and we'll talk about. Rehearsing. And every time we did a pitch at the agency I've been in when it's been more than one person, even with my clients, I get them presenting to a room. I get them to practice first, and then if it's a really important pitch, I will get in people that are friendly to us and might be from the industries we're going to pitch to and I'll get them to pitch to them and do an assessment. The more rehearsing you can do, the better you're going to be able to perform.

Ron Tomlian:

Absolutely and that leads us beautifully. Thank you very much. Brenton, into what we're going to talk about next time, which is how to take that information we've talked about up till now, when we want to get our ideas across in a more formal way, and I'm talking about face to face, and that could be face to face with one person or 500 people. What are some of the things that we can use in order to more effectively communicate when it's not quite so two way, it's more one way, and that's presentation skills.

Brenton Gowland:

Great. So our next episode is going to be in presentations. If you have just joined us, go back to episode number one of the effective communication series, where we create a rating, and that rating is we ask you to rate yourself on what your communication skill set or ability is right now we want you to rate yourself again at the end of this series. So the other episodes launch of the effective communication series, the art of listening, the five essential questions every leader should ask, being prepared for communications in a crisis, difficult conversations today is nonverbal communication. Next fortnight, presentations, presentations. So until then, it's goodbye from me.

Ron Tomlian:

And goodbye from me.