Business Builders Podcast

Building Mental Fitness with Tim Bishop

• Brenton Gowland & Ron Tomlian • Season 4 • Episode 60

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With the soaring cost of living and global uncertainties, prioritising our mental health has never been more crucial. In this episode, we're talking with Tim Bishop about the unique pressures in the construction industry and how businesses like his are focusing on developing their staff's mental fitness. A vocal advocate for mental health in the workplace, Tim shares his journey of overcoming a dark period in his work life. He offers insights on building resilience, supporting well-being, and navigating the complexities of our times with strength and clarity. Join us as we discuss strategies for building and maintaining the mental fitness of both ourselves and our staff.

Episode Summary :

  • The Unique Pressures of the Construction Industry: A discussion on the specific challenges faced by workers in the construction sector, including job security, physical demands, and the industry's historical undervaluing of mental health.

  • Tim Bishop's Journey: Tim shares his personal experience with mental health struggles, providing a narrative of his dark period and the steps he took towards recovery. This segment offers listeners an intimate look at the realities of facing and overcoming mental health challenges.

  • Developing Staff's Mental Fitness: Insight into how Tim's business is actively working to support the mental well-being of its employees. This includes practical strategies, programs, and initiatives aimed at building resilience and mental strength among staff.

  • Advocacy for Workplace Mental Health: Tim's role as a vocal advocate for mental health in the workplace, including his efforts to change industry perceptions and encourage open discussions on mental well-being.

  • Building and Maintaining Mental Fitness: Strategies and advice from Tim on cultivating mental fitness for individuals and teams. This includes daily practices, supportive workplace cultures, and resources for mental health support.

  • Navigating Complexities with Strength and Clarity: How to approach the multifaceted challenges of modern life with a focus on maintaining mental health. Tim offers insights into managing stress, fostering emotional intelligence, and making well-being a priority.

  • Conclusion: Strategies for the Future: Wrapping up the episode with actionable takeaways for listeners to apply in their personal and professional lives. Emphasis on the collective responsibility to support mental fitness in and out of the workplace.

  • Join the Conversation: Encouragement for listeners to engage with the topic, share their experiences, and explore further resources on mental fitness and well-being.


Conclusion:
It's evident that the journey towards mental well-being is both a personal and collective endeavour. Tim's narrative of overcoming adversity, coupled with his proactive approach within the construction industry, illuminates the path for individuals and businesses alike to foster environments where mental fitness is not just encouraged but integral t

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Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Business Builders Podcast. Until next time, KEEP ON BUILDING !!

Brenton Gowland:

Hey there Business Builders. We've got a must listen episode today where we discuss mental fitness with our guest, Tim Bishop, focusing on the construction industry where traditionally mental health hasn't been a key priority. We talk about how to foster a culture where mental health is valued just as much as physical safety. And Tim shares, insights and strategies with us that are essential for developing a supportive workplace that champions mental fitness. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts, I am Brenton Gowland.

Ron Tomlian:

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

And Ron, it's been four weeks since our last podcast,

Ron Tomlian:

don't remind me.

Brenton Gowland:

I know.

Ron Tomlian:

I feel very guilty.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, we got to get back into a two week cadence. So to all of you our listeners, we will get back into a two week cadence soon, but it's been a busy time.

Ron Tomlian:

It's been very busy. I've started a new course running a new three lecture course at uni. And yeah, it takes takes a lot to get that started because I'm going to use the systems and but it's good.

Brenton Gowland:

I love it. And I'm renovating a house and I've discovered my inner tradie

Ron Tomlian:

Oh wow.

Brenton Gowland:

But on that if you've been waiting and going what's going on with these guys? Why haven't we had an episode? It's worth the wait. Because today we've got with us, the regional manager of the construction company BMD Mr. Tim Bishop. Now, Tim will tell us about himself in a minute. But, Tim, and the reason we've got him he is Tim's become an advocate in the mental health space. And I'll let him tell you how that came about. But he has been active in breaking the stigma in the construction industry, about mental health. And I think that's a massively important thing. Because what I've learned of late, Ron is that the construction industry has a very high rate of mental stress. And unfortunately, suicide. It's not good. No. But we've got someone here today, Tim, who has been an advocate for changing that. So welcome, Tim, how are you?

Tim Bishop:

Good. Thanks, gents, it's really good to be on the show today, really happy to share my story with you with you both and your listeners. So thank you for having me on.

Brenton Gowland:

That's great. And I heard a bit of your story a few years back, so I'm really excited to hear the full story. But before we get into that, Tim, can you tell us a little bit about yourself a little bit about BMD and what it is you do in that construction company? I know you're the regional manager, but what does that mean?

Tim Bishop:

Look regional manager, so I said above to state managers who look after South Australia and Victoria, so I'm there to support them. AMD is a national group of civil construction companies. So turns over about $2.4 billion this year. But it's the most significant thing for me, and part of my journey is that it's still family owned. It's been something that is a pride to all of us. So we treat each of our business units like a family. And yeah, look, we're really proud of the business. It's expanded into the Philippines and into the UK recently over the last 12 months. So it's good to see an Australian owned contractor taking on the big boys internationally.

Brenton Gowland:

And when we were having our pre chat you were saying that you'd be happy to be there in 40 years. That's a big call. You've only been there about 18. Yeah,

Tim Bishop:

yeah, I'm in my 19th year of BMD, it's like somewhere I never see leaving. It's a sense of pride in the workplace, but also that family, the business goes with you on life's journeys, the ups and downs, the left's and rights, which we'll talk about a bit later, but yeah, you know, it's, it's somewhere that we, you're always challenged, it's always a diversification of industries or clients. It's always been growing, when it continues to grow. And it's, you know, it's grown probably about 50%, in the last two years through the kind of COVID recovery and infrastructure boom. So it's a company with lots of really good people, but also really good challenges to continue to face.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, not many people would be able to say that they want to be with a company their whole career. Did you come across many people like that run in your

Ron Tomlian:

I used to, I used to I used to be the norm, but to the conventional wisdom. Now, as you move around, it's great to hear that people are thinking, what's right for them. And not just following the, as I say, the conventional wisdom, and it's great to hear the companies are in John during that type of loyalty and sense of ownership. Yet, it doesn't happen often. I don't see it that often. But I know a lot of people try and do that.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, our series at the moment is on lifework balance, as we talked about before we came in here and if you've been listening over the last boy, I think 10 episodes almost, then you'll know that we've been talking about lifework balance and how important that is for our mental health, how important it is for our ability to get things done in our productivity. So today, our focus is on mental health and how that affects lifework balance and in particular, Tim, how have you become a vocal advocate for mental health awareness in the construction industry and your workplace?

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, it's been a really interesting journey for me. I know when I moved to Adelaide about nine years ago and undiscovered mates and construction as a mental health support to our industry. They were involved in our business day to day it was a massive champion of what they were doing.

Brenton Gowland:

Just sorry to cut you off. That's the first time you've mentioned Mates in Construction just want to explain what that is in relation to BMD.

Tim Bishop:

So Mason construction is an industry based charity, and they do mental health awareness and training in our industry at a number of different levels. They've been going really, really well. They are expanding into other industries as well mining and manufacturing and those kinds of things. But in the civil construction space, they were generally omnipresent on our construction sites, we did induction training with them on every project we did, they have a wonderful group of speakers, Bob Clifford, who's recently retired, but they've got married has just celebrated something like 75 talks, but they they've trained 10s of 1000s of people in mental health support. And it's really challenging for me, because when I was going through the deepest challenges of my life in mental health, that we were never more active with Mates in Construction. They were doing so much work in and around our business, which something we're really proud of. But I was also going through this downward spiral in my own mental health. So it kind of coincided with that journey. So I'm really lucky that they were there and when I needed the most.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, do you want to tell us a little bit about that, because that was the catalyst for you becoming an advocate for mental health.

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, so mid 2019. So July 2019, think I've been going down a period of about 18 months before that, where I had those fleeting moments of a, I'm not sure if I really want to be here, then that kind of happened once a month. And then it can't happen once every three weeks. And once a fortnight. And once a fortnight turned into once a week, and once a week turned into every day, when that that took a period of about 18 months. And I finally reached out to Mates in Construction, I didn't reach out to my family and my friends or my work, I'd had that relationship with Mates in Construction and find out the crisis line, which in hindsight was a brave thing to do. But I think they were just really, really supportive. You know, they pointed me in the right direction to get help from doctors. And they referred us to our employee assistance programme and those kinds of things. But yeah, I wasn't prepared to talk to anyone else. But but then. So that's probably a testament to the impact that they have on our industry and the people in it. And they help an awful lot of people. I'm not the only one, they help us. I think, from that I reached out to them. I went and had some counselling, I went see a doctor, I've never seen a doctor so scared in my life. When I did a stress, anxiety and depression test in front of a doctor, she sat down and said, I don't actually want you to leave the room. But I think what happened there is I went to get help. And I went to a counsellor. And, you know, she said, Is there anyone else in your industry that you can lean on who? Who has gone on this journey? And I said, I don't know, when I did a fair bit of research over that kind of six or eight weeks, the first six or eight weeks with the counsellor and I couldn't find anything. And I was talking to my counsellor and she said, hey, look, you've bottled things up for so many years. How about you write some of it down? And would you like to talk about it? So we kind of as part of a strategy to help my mental health. I wrote an article that I shared with you in our industry magazine, that opened some doors and got some general awareness in the industry nationally, when I ended up talking in Melbourne had a Rhodes Australia safety conference. But I think that was the driver for me. I said, Hey, if I'm gonna go through this journey, which is painful, and it was long and painful to recover my mental health, I just said, Hey, I'm gonna take the industry on the journey with me and the support of Rhodes, Australia, the civil construction Federation, BMD were absolutely amazing. They let me fly around the country in Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Perth, and just have a really honest conversation. And, you know, that's part of why I'm here today is to continue that conversation. And I just wanted to be a leader who stood up and said, Hey, life's not perfect. We all have challenges. And I think the only way we're going to change all of our industries, if we have a culture where people can actually put the hand up and say, Hey, I'm not in a good spot right now. And can we work through it?

Ron Tomlian:

Wow, that is brave. Absolutely. And what's great to hear is that, number one, you were brave enough to do that. But there were will people willing to listen and help and support? And I think it's becoming normalised now, but I still think we've got a long way to go.

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, I think humans are basically really good, good people, right? People want to listen and help each other. But I think we've had a culture where we, you know, we get to a point where we say hey, we'll just deal with it and we'll deal with it behind closed doors and other things. We've spoken about this a little bit before but I think men in particular in in and in male dominated industries. There's this attitude that you've got to be the breadwinner and provider and you've got to be the strong family man and at work you've got to be the strong leader that doesn't show any weakness you know, civil construction is a really tough industry showing weakness is seen as you know, being soft he saw his show known as a sign of weakness, and there's not really

Ron Tomlian:

No, I mean, if you've watched any of the TED Talks that Brene Brown has, is given the, she often talks about in people who have shared some of the bravest, most courageous people she's ever met, and being vulnerable. Unfortunately, the term vulnerable implies weakness, but it's not. I mean that when you talk about people who are like, like Tim, who are willing to share their story, it's not an easy thing to do, you've got to have a lot of courage to do it. So it's not vulnerability is not about weakness. It's actually about strength, I think, to really highlight that courage to Tim, because, you know, there's a number of facets to your story. So the first one that springs to mind is you went to Mates in Construction to have that conversation. But you didn't do that. I know this, because we just had the chat earlier. You didn't tell your family you didn't tell your workmates? How did you communicate with them? And how long did it actually take to get to a place where you recovered? And what was the process? Yeah, it's when we talk about strength and vulnerability and bravery. I still wouldn't say I was the bravest. When I told my workplace and my wife, I reached that point where I was at absolute despair and find mites. And then the next morning, actually sent my workmates and my manager, an email, I couldn't pluck up the words to physically say it to them. And I couldn't pick up the words to tell my wife in person. And I actually forwarded my wife, the email that I sent my sent my work and said, hey, you need to read this email, I can't articulate what I want to talk to you about, which in hindsight, is probably not the not the way I would like to handle it again. But that, that would tell you the really challenging point, I was in like, nothing made sense.

Brenton Gowland:

But that's what growth is all about. And you've come a long way since then. Yeah, look, it, it takes a lot to recover. And I think that's where people kind of misunderstand challenges with mental health, like, I went to a doctor that was medicated, right? That's not a bad thing. It was just to get, you know, to get you in a safe spot, so that you can actually deal with the counselling, and the processing of, of challenges and trauma in your life, and you need to get in a safe spot. And that's, you know, why the doctor was so horrified when I first saw it, she's like, you're off the charts here, Mike, you're in a really dangerous place. And you know, medication takes at least a month to kind of kick in. So your doctors and your counsellors are really, really worried in that first month when you're going through these battles. So, yeah, it's, it's a challenge, communicating that to people. And I think that's when you're most vulnerable. But I think it's when you need an employer and your home life to understand what you're going through. And I think that's advocacy is about raising that awareness and saying, Hey, for me, the more people who know about mental health is D. stigmatised, it's, you know, it's no different than having cancer or having a heart attack. And it's just a medical condition, right? It just, it's just something that's normal. It's a normal part of life you like you're not mentally healthy for a period of your life. What I think your story highlights for me is how hard it is for people to actually mention it that first time that there's something going on. And we talked about the construction industry earlier about the rate of suicide. And I think that's a testament to the fact that people find it really hard to talk about. And so you took those first steps in the best way you could, but now you can articulate it, like a muscle, you use it and it will grow. You can articulate it to groups of 1000 people that you speak to, which I'm not sure if our listeners would realise that. But from your story, you've been around the country speaking at Big gigs, talking about mental health.

Tim Bishop:

Yeah. And I think at every single one of those events, four or five people have come up to me afterwards and said, Hey, look, I'm really struggling, how do I get some help? So I think being able to articulate that journey is just one that it needs honesty, right? You need to be able to say, I'm not good, I'm okay. I'm really good today. You're not always depressed, I'd hit a point where I was medically sick. And it's really challenging to explain to someone when people say, hey, look, you've got a wonderful wife. She's amazing. I've got a wonderful employer, a really good group of mates. And everyone goes, well, how do you get to the point where you don't want to be here anymore? And I said, Well, I was sick. Like, I reached a point of absolute logic, where I thought that my family my friends, were better off without me. And it's absolute logic. And now I'm healthy and recovered. I don't know how I got to that spot. You know, trauma and all those things. I know through that, but you just go. The absolute clarity of this is the number one thing I need to do is something that I'll never forget. But I just don't think people can understand where you are in that space unless you've actually been there.

Ron Tomlian:

And then less people talk about it. So you've mentioned the importance about opening up about mental health, which is Really what saved you? The fact that you're willing to do that? What advice would you give to someone in a leadership situation or leadership position? Who is currently feeling the same mental health challenges that you felt, but feels the need to maintain that strong front that you talked about?

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, I think we, every leader that you're looking at around you, and you're feeling nervous about talking to them about whether they've been through a similar journey, you will find that they probably have might not be the same situation. But you know, I've been to business builders, and I've been to sa leaders and those kinds of organisations and spent a lot of time with other senior leaders. And the overriding honesty that you get in those things is you've got CEOs who have got no idea about marketing, or they're not very good at finance, or these kinds of things. And everyone's got an issue, right? Everyone is at these events, because they want to learn and improve themselves. And talking about your mental health to fellow leaders is often a bit of a safety net for you, because you probably don't feel comfortable talking in your own organisation about it. You don't feel comfortable talking down. But I think there's plenty of organisations and support out there, at the same level would be a first good interim step I would suggest.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, right.

Ron Tomlian:

So becoming part of those networks, is what you're saying is the first step.

Tim Bishop:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

Fantastic?

Brenton Gowland:

Well, it sounds like Mates in Construction kind of did that in the construction industry, because you said they were embedded in intrinsic in your inductions on work sites. And that, that really strikes me as pretty unique and cool, in a way because you had this comfort level with them, because they were always there. Right. And I think what I'm hearing is, it's the same kind of thing you're rubbing shoulders, with people in business networking, kind of arena is web. And we all know it when we've been in leadership roles or a CEO. Everyone's got the same issues. When you eventually open up and talk about it, you, you're all having the same kind of questions. So being able to talk about it is good, but you get used to these people. So you start with those kinds of conversations.

Tim Bishop:

You do it is how you improve as a leader, right? I think I've spent a lot of the last three years having business coaches, and those kind of people come into our business to help to help me be a better leader. And I think that's one of the challenges of leadership, good leaders, lean on the people around them to learn and grow as leaders, you don't suddenly become a great leader overnight, and you don't suddenly become an Elon Musk, like he's got his own challenges in different parts of his leadership. But like, there's no perfect CEO, there's no perfect leader. So we're all learning as we go.

Ron Tomlian:

That's right. And I think that's, that's a really important point for anyone, is that the old model of a natural born leader really doesn't exist. You learn leadership, and you develop your leadership and you improve, hopefully, your leadership over time. It's not something that you're just born with. And you know, that that's that whole thing about a growth mindset versus fixed mindset, and all that sort of fun stuff. We don't have time to go into today. But it's important, it's really important. And I mean, that that's the benefit I get for those groups of CEOs that I work with, is that they have a space where they can talk to other leaders in a safe environment makes all the difference for them.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. And it's so important, because I know again, in our pre chat, I was talking about a group I'm involved with, and for the first time, I'll share this. For the first time in a long time, a week ago, I felt depressed. And I haven't felt depressed in years. I don't know why that's just the way I'm wired. 10 or 15 years ago, that wasn't the way I was wired. But yeah, it was because it was doing this house renovation that I mentioned earlier, that just will never end and is so all consuming, that we're only doing a podcast every four weeks at the moment. And I'm like, When will this end anyway, and it got to that point, but I was with that group and I just articulated it. And then I think they took me out for drinks, so we could talk about it. So that was great. But look, we've mentioned Mates in Construction a number of times. So I think it's really important if we could discuss the role of programmes like that. And I don't know how much you know about Mates in Construction and how it came to be. But it sounds like obviously, it's embedded in the construction industry and other industries will have similar things, I hope but can we talk about mates and construction and perhaps Employee Assistance programmes and their role in supporting mental health and life work balances? So my question is really, how can businesses better implement and encourage use of these kinds of programmes Tim?

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, I think Employee Assistance programmes have their place and time in every organisation right and it can be an easy way to allow access for your staff to get some quick support. They are part of the solution. They are not the solution. Okay. You know, mostly AP programmes. You can have four or six sessions that you can go to But they're really to get you through either some informal advice, and some of them do financial things and some health things, you know, most people would associate them with, Hey, I'm having a crisis. And it's kind of around mental health in our discussion today, but they are only part of the solution. They're set up to deliver support to what are quite substantial organisations. And we spoke about earlier, when you've got an organisation that's got less than 15 or 20. People, it's really challenging to have any AP, provided that suits your business, as works pretty well. It wasn't without its challenges that through that process, and BMD and myself, have taken a lot of learnings from how VIP looks through this process. And I shared with you, the first counsellor I had was not a good fit for me to put it succinctly. And I ended up on a second counsellor and like that's a very common outcome of EAP programmes that first counsellor doesn't fit, go and see another one when it takes a bit of time. But I think they are really, really important. But as a leader, you can't rely on them to fix your issues. You need to have a culture and an environment where you can talk about it within your workplaces, because it's a band aid, right. EAP is a band aid, it's a good band aid. But it's something that you're only going to fix those issues if you have a culture in an organisation where you can actually say, Hey, I'm not having a good day.

Brenton Gowland:

And how did that culture get built in BMD?

Tim Bishop:

Family values. Our number one value is family, right? And that doesn't mean you always get on really, really well families and challenge each other. That's what good families do. But it's all about culture. And look, we've been on a journey as a business, you know, male dominated, and we're up to 19% female participation this week, and in the eyes International Women's Day today. So we're diversifying our workforce, which is a good thing. It's not just good for women coming into our industry. But I think that diversification by workforce really breaks that male stigma and traditional male roles in our industry.

Brenton Gowland:

Tell me something else. Do you think and this is just an out there kind of question, because we were talking about this earlier. We asked Tim the question, why do you think the construction industry he says such a high rate of suicide? The first thing you said, was there's such a high percentage of males, it's male dominated? Do you actually think that has anything to do with it? Because what I'm kind of inferring is you're saying you're 19%. Now, does having a mixed gender balance mean, a more open dialogue within the business? I'm just curious.

Tim Bishop:

I think it does. And I will caution that with what I say at my presentations around the country, it is not up to the females within a business, to be the soft and gentle ones, to create a culture around mental health awareness, it is a business challenge. I think what we're coming from is a generational backlog. civils always been male dominated, that is changing. But I think it's also about how we raise our kids. It's about how engineers come out of uni. The cultural ingrained, male macho, alpha male leadership is changing slowly. And it's when I talk about mental health around the country, it's going, Hey, this is a generational change, we're making good progress is probably not quite fast enough. And all civil construction companies like hey, we can all do a bit more. But I think it's gonna take us kind of 20 or 30 years to get that gender balance a bit better. And I think

Brenton Gowland:

The gender landscape is changing as well. So that's complex.

Tim Bishop:

Yes. And it's gonna be a step by step. But I think to get that balance, right, and to get culture, right, it needs, years and years of work. And I think I'm lucky that I've come from a business that's been going since 1979. And that culture is firmly embedded in that business about wanting to help but the industry's only really been on this journey for, you know, what I've been doing. It's been about five years, but mates have been going for probably 10 or 12 years doing some really good work. But we're, we're in the initial phases of this journey. I think we'll be in a hugely different space and another 10 years, but I still don't think it's going to be business as usual for a number of years.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, right.

Ron Tomlian:

You've obviously had some success within your company and your industry, in raising awareness about mental health and getting people to start talking about it. What would you suggest other people do? They may not be in construction, then they might not have the difficulties that you've had because of those profiles, or those archetypal type of leadership styles. But they still have challenges. What would you suggest to other leaders? About right, getting similar dialogues in their industry or in their company?

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, look, I think one of the things we've done as a business is incorporate into our meetings, go and give us some good news, personal and professional and let us know what's going on in your life. And you find people say, hey, yeah, look, there's nothing, nothing good going on. And that's a trigger point for your hunt. If you create an environment where you're asking people about how they are and what's good and what's bad, they often won't respond negatively, they'll just be a lack of positivity. So I think there are a number of small tools that you can create in your meetings and your daily workflow, whichever industry you're in and go, and hey, let's just bring a bit of that. How are you all going into your business day to day,

Ron Tomlian:

but that's really interesting, because when I was younger, there was an attitude. And this is this gets to the point that you were talking about generational change, there was an attitude that was embedded in people that, you know, when you go to work, it's about work. And you don't talk about home. And as a leader, I don't want to know about your personal life that I'm happy to say is changing. But it sounds like some people aren't changing that they're still keeping that separation. How important is it to want to understand the whole person that is working with you as a leader, like when

Tim Bishop:

you care about someone's career progression and long term career within your organisation, you think you need to understand what's going on at home, I am clear and the MD A clear is, we can't solve everyone's issues at home, Ron, we can create an environment where they can talk about it, and we can point them in the right direction. And we can guide them, we can support them. But I think some businesses are scared that if you take on employees problems, that you you kind of open yourself up to fixing them. And that's not the reality, right? And that Scott, who's the CEO of AMD is going, Hey, we can't fix everyone's problems. And he's right. And I 100% supportive of that, like, work can point you in the right direction, provide you that support so that you have the best chance of being healthy at home and performing really, really well at work. So I think there's a balance when when they overlap. And there's also when we talk about work life balance going, Hey, we want people to go home safe and well to their families and enjoy the time with their families. They go to work to get fulfilment, but they also go to work to earn some money so they can spend it enjoying life with their family.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. And it kind of says, how far does our duty of care go? And realistically, the duty of care is, well, that period of time people are at work, and maybe when they're travelling to and fro. But that then also, as you were kind of saying, it encompasses mental health, because what happens in the workplace is a direct result of that. And yes, we can't fix people's problems. But I like that human element that you're talking about bringing into discussions in the workplace, I think that's, that's really good.

Tim Bishop:

You've got to have it. And I think if I take a fiscal perspective, and I'm pretty honest about these things, if someone cuts their hand at work, they're off work for a couple of days come the business couple of $1,000, right? It's not great, but that's the reality. But mental health claims in our industry, are averaging around 13 weeks of lost time, and the cost per person, per person, and they're costing about 50 to $60,000 per case in terms of work cover. So when you look at the return on investment you get by investing in your team and prioritising their mental health, you're actually working in your own financial best interest as well as being a good human being and a good leader than a good boss. Right?

Brenton Gowland:

That is great. Look, I think a lot of people understand that, like when you're a business owner, and you've got a business of 15 people dealing with the mental part of people's challenges is so tough, because you've got so many competing issues when you're in a small business. But when you put it in context like that, that that could cost you an extra 60 grand, it puts things in perspective, because when you're a small business owner, you're running around trying to plug a leaky ship very often or, or get the ship steered in the right direction without losing too much along the way. So that just puts it in perspective about how important it is, I think.

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, and I think that's one of the things I'm really proud of. And we had a quick catch up about earlier, when I spoke in Melbourne, that first talk had a bit of a profound effect on the CCF president who was over there at the time. And they went and said, Hey, we need to make some change. And they went to government and they got it, they got millions of dollars worth of funding, right. But they got their funding, because the lost productivity in our industry is in the 10s of billions of dollars. And their version of WorkCover is having increasing claims paid out every single year around employees mental health challenges, right. So it's gonna it's the biggest ticking time bomb in terms of WorkCover claims, probably nationally. You know, we're, we're doing good work on asbestosis, silicosis, and all the kinds of things that you see going on in the in the national press, but mental health and the cost WorkCover claims is going through the roof. And ultimately, we all pay for that. As taxpayers. Every dollar that gets paid out gets recouped. Right.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, wow.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. So and this is the thing. There's a human cost, but there's also a cost to the entire community. And the more that we can help people justify doing something, you know, business owners, and they are motivated by making sure that the organisation is sustainable. And I mean that in a business sense. I'd think more of that time. conversation needs to be had, that this is a financial and a human, you know that your whole ESG thing, environmental, social governance, it's the buzzword at the moment that everyone tends to be talking about, it is really important that that this gets included in that whole conversation. It's not just about the environment or ecological environment, it's about the environment we put our people into. So based on your experience, and now that you're in a better place in regards to your mental health, Tim, can you give us some insights into how you would now navigate your mental health challenges and maintain a healthy work life balance?

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, like, for me, it's just about having communication about how I'm feeling as a regular part of my life. So we go back to that basics of meetings and pray stops and all the soft things that you do within your business. But also, just being honest with your workmates and your colleagues about how busy life is or what's going on at work. And they don't need to know the finer details of it. But you can have conversations as a leader with your team saying, I'm really under the pump at the moment. If I'm a bit short, pull me up on it. I need, you know, you need to work better on it. But you just need to have conversations. So hey, look, I'm in a high stress environment at the moment where you go home in a really good spot. But I think having those conversations means that you monitor and your workmates monitor and your team monitor each other. And the more you do those kinds of small check ins, it becomes business as usual. And it will flow through your work team. So whether you're a CEO with a company of 1000 employees, or you've got five employees, making those conversations regular, it's really important that like personally, I take heaps of photos of the good things in my life and post on Instagram. That's my mental health diary. But I'm always having people around me check in and just say my a gun, and just given them an honest answer

Brenton Gowland:

is that has come about because of your honesty with mental health back in the day, or it

Tim Bishop:

probably has directly to me, but I think they asked those same same questions over the leaders that they interact with. So I think I'd like to think there's a positive impact of what we've been doing as an industry. But it's really common for me to walk into high level meetings in our industry board, for example. And the first question I want to ask, another leader is going, Hey, Mike, I know you're under the pump, you're really busy. You're late to the meeting, you're always on the phone. Are you okay? And that simple question of Are you okay? People do think twice. And then you might have to prompt a second question, but people generally will be honest with you if you ask a couple of direct questions.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay. So look, as we're coming to the end of our time today, Business Builders podcast is all about giving practical advice. So we're looking for your top three recommendations or tips for business leaders about how they can improve or work to improve the mental health inside the businesses that they operate. How can how can we help other people start this journey in their businesses

Ron Tomlian:

And ourselves? You know, and I think it starts with the individual themselves. But it also is thinking about the mental health of other people in the organisation, too.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. So you have to lead from the top, I guess.

Ron Tomlian:

And yeah,

Brenton Gowland:

yeah,

Ron Tomlian:

modelling. It's called.

Brenton Gowland:

So Tim, over to you.

Tim Bishop:

I think the number one thing for me is seek first to understand and that's the kind of leadership mantra that's been bandied around for a number of years. But when I refer to the HR and performance challenges we have with our workforce from time to time, the first question that we want our leaders to ask is, how do we get here, and what's going on in their life because people don't go to work to deliberately underperform. It's a very good point. Humans want to go to work and have fun, work hard, and some good money and go home. They don't come to work to underperformance. And when you ask them those holistic questions, usually you'll find out that, you know, you might be having a blue with the wife or you might be having some financial dramas short term. And you can work around that as a business leader. So I think asking your time and asking yourself to understand what that person is in in the situation they're in is the number one fundamental for me. The second one is just having conversations around mental fitness or mental health whichever way you want to term it. It's part of your everyday ongoing workflow and work meetings from the start of the day to the end and celebrating success. BMD is an amazing company. We want to know that people are having fun on the weekend and having good times with their families.

Brenton Gowland:

I like that term mental fitness

Tim Bishop:

It's been probably the biggest change I've seen in the last two years in discussions around mental health. It's, it's changed from a mental health discussion to a mental fitness because mental health is I'm either healthy or I'm not. And fitness is a level of can I run a kilometre or can I run five K's or can I rely on a marathon

Brenton Gowland:

that's really smart.

Ron Tomlian:

And it also it comes in the resilience and I can be active in this? I think that's a really good perspective

Tim Bishop:

Yeah, okay. Yep, third one. Third one is around to have. that work life balance. And I work in an industry where the working hours do not change. It's, it's something that we have a bit more flexibility that we're working through. But it's a tough industry, the working hours or is going to be long, but it's going, Hey, how do you make that 10 or 12 hours at work, as good as it can be, but also give your employees the opportunity to turn off when they go home. And there's some legislation coming around from the Labour Party around the right to disconnect and those kinds of things. But there's a balance with that, like, I have a role where I'm available, most evenings, but it's about going. If I get to work, and I'm comfortable, I'm happy. The odd disturbance outside of work hours is not a big thing, because we've create an environment where you can separate the two.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so let's model this. Tim, what's your mental fitness like right now?

Tim Bishop:

I'm going to be honest, it's been pretty average for the last month. I've had a lot going on at work. And I've been a bit crook. But I've had good friends really reaching out saying, Hey, how are you going? And I've had an honest conversation going, Yeah, at the moment is a bit average, like I got a couple of extra pounds around the belly. My Fitness isn't quite where it needs to be. If you'd asked me that same question three months ago, I would have said, hey, it's the best it's ever been. You go in and out of peak performance in with your mental health pretty quickly, right? It doesn't take too much to knock you down. But it also, if you have those tools, and those people around you that have honest conversations, you can rebound really, really quickly. So yeah, I reached out to a good friend a few days ago, and we're gonna have a catch up for coffee. But that's like a sign and a warning sign that I need to be aware of that. But yeah, I think it's a constant, constant work in progress.

Brenton Gowland:

And Ron, how's your mental fitness? Yeah, I'd be mirror what Tim said, a few knocks around the place. But then you do something about it. And and being aware that it's there are going to be times when things are tough. And I need to trim the cloth, according to what's happening in my life. So yes, I probably need to take a little bit. I've put a lot of workload on me at the moment. And I need to take some time to do the things I enjoy. So I will. And I'm about the same I shared with you guys in our pre chat that I'd been depressed for the first time in a while because of this house that I've been renovating. And I felt that we were just about finished. And then we basically accidentally knocked this hole in a wall because it was rotting with mould behind it. And all of a sudden despair just hit me like this project is never going to end. But what's really helped me is my partner has been right there with me. She's been painting the place and knocking down walls, and I'm repairing them. I'm joking, we're doing it together. But the thing that's struggled with me is it's kept me away from work. It's kept me away from being consistent with the podcast, and so forth. And when I'm not consistent, that causes mental dramas with me, but the thing that's helped was actually the other week, and you were there, talking about it with a group of people at the pub, that was quite helpful. But I feel there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Because I know that. For me, it's literally that house will be finished within four weeks. And then I feel like the world is going to open up again.

Ron Tomlian:

To a schedule with a podcast. Yeah, there you go.

Brenton Gowland:

So I think the way we're going to end today, as everyone out there who's listening today, what is your mental fitness like right now? So the task that I would suggest, and this is you check me with this, Tim, is that you should check in with how many people on this? Do you think just one or a couple?

Tim Bishop:

I think two or three right? And just ask the question. So how do you think I'm going at the moment? People give you a pretty honest answer when you ask them pretty simple questions. Now go to your wife and say how do you think I'm going at the moment and they said, hey, you know, you might be down or we might be up, but just as two or three different people will have a check in.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so before our next podcast episode, listeners, I want to ask someone how they think you're doing and assess your mental fitness at the moment and what you need to do about it. I think it's important. I think we all all are the same, whether we're Tim, Ron Branson, or anyone who's out there, working away in a business, we've all got the same struggles and issues and I think it helps to, as Tim said, bring that human element into it. So Tim, thank you very much. That was actually really good alert. A whole bunch of things in there. I love that mental fitness thing

Ron Tomlian:

There ya go, we've uncovered something that we can maybe take into the future without podcast

Brenton Gowland:

agreed and run.

Ron Tomlian:

We'll be back into it. We'll be less than that. Maybe

Brenton Gowland:

okay, we commit to that everybody. We will see you in two weeks. Bye for now.