Business Builders Podcast

Strategies for Sleeping Well with Dr Kristyn Kemp

• Season 3 • Episode 56

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Picture a CEO at the helm of a thriving company, their decisions impacting their employees lives and sometimes their customers' lives, not to mention the future of their business. Now imagine that same CEO struggling to find sleep night after night. How will this affect the quality of their decisions and their ability to lead? This is the paradox that we unravel in Episode 56 of the Business Builders Podcast. Joined by Dr. Kristyn Kemp, a leading expert in sleep psychology, we delve into the vital, yet often overlooked, world of sleep for business leaders. Dr. Kemp brings her expertise to the table, offering strategies and insights tailored for those who find their sleep compromised by the demands of leadership.

Main Topics & Key Points:

  • The Crucial Link Between Sleep and Leadership: Understanding how sleep affects business leaders' decision-making, health, and overall performance.
  • Addressing Common Sleep Challenges: Discussion on the prevalent sleep issues among business leaders and their impact on professional and personal life.
  • Practical Sleep Improvement Techniques: Focusing on behavioural and lifestyle changes to enhance sleep quality, specifically designed for busy executives.
  • The Balance of Work and Rest: Insights into the positive effects of good sleep on productivity, creativity, and effective leadership.
  • Practical Advice for Better Sleep: Dr. Kemp shares actionable tips and relaxation methods to help CEOs achieve the rest they need to thrive.

Unique Perspectives:

  • Personal Experiences from the Hosts: Brenton and Ron contribute their own stories, discussing how sleep patterns have influenced their work and life.
  • Expert Recommendations: Dr. Kemp provides specific guidance, combining her deep understanding of sleep psychology with the unique challenges faced by business leaders.

Conclusion and Looking Ahead:
The episode wraps up by reinforcing the importance of sleep in the life of a Business Builders. Upcoming episodes will continue to explore the theme of life-work balance, featuring insights from various experts and successful business professionals.

This episode is a key resource for CEOs and business owners aiming to enhance their leadership through the transformative power of sleep.

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>> Connect with our hosts on Linkedin


Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Business Builders Podcast. Until next time, KEEP ON BUILDING !!

Brenton Gowland:

Hey there Business Builders! Ever found yourself counting sheep long into the night while your thoughts are filled with your business to do lists? Well, in today's episode, we tackle the vital yet often overlooked subject of sleep for business professionals. Today we're talking with Dr. Kristyn Kemp, a renowned sleep psychologist about how to get better sleep, which in turn leads to better business performance. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts. I am Brenton Gowland,

Ron Tomlian:

and I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

And Ron last, well, actually, before we get cracking into it, we didn't put out a podcast last week. We were one week late.

Ron Tomlian:

Yes. Well, busyness not a Saturday,

Brenton Gowland:

it's because we've got a special guest today. And we had to wait for this person. So

Ron Tomlian:

And, well worth the wait I would say.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, so we thought we wouldn't throw in a little episode in between to pad it. We thought we'd just wait an extra week. So if you were going What happened to you guys last week? Well, we were getting ready for today. And in our last podcast, you threw down a bit of a challenge Ron.

Ron Tomlian:

I did. I did. I challenged you and our listeners. But do you get included in that to make sure that you book a holiday of some sort? Even if it's a weekend away? Have you done your homework Brenton?

Brenton Gowland:

Well, we've booked a weekend away in early December, but it's just for the weekend. And I'm suggesting that we have a longer holiday in New Zealand, but we're just negotiating costs at the moment.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, yeah, just think about this when you're 80 years old? Yes. Will you say I wish we'd gone to New Zealand, I regret having not gone to think about the consequences of not going and serve the cost of actually going. Because there's a cost of not going

Brenton Gowland:

that's a very good point. I know a certain personality talking about that with, which is Oh, good. She's very concerned about all the things making sure that we budget correctly and budget wisely. So that sometimes comes into that holiday arrangement, too. Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's worth thinking about, but don't prevent yourself from taking you can even take a holiday down to, I don't know, Google or somewhere like that. I've

Brenton Gowland:

heard on the grapevine, probably from our guests when we had our pre chat that Gore Beach is one of the best places in the world yet,

Ron Tomlian:

but I'd agree with that. I do think character Linka sneaks in a little bit. So

Brenton Gowland:

we better get into introducing our guests and without any further delay. Okay,

Ron Tomlian:

so let's get on to it. Joining us today on the business builders podcast is Dr. Kristyn Kemp. Now Kristyn is an experienced sleep psychologist which is so appropriate for today, and has a passion for helping individuals achieve their optimal rest. She has a career spanning over two decades and has dedicated herself to understanding the intricacies of sleep and its profound impact on our daily lives, which it does have. Having completed her extensive studies at Flinders University under the tutelage of Professor lean on lack a leading world expert in sleep. She conducted research in bright light therapy for circadian rhythm disorders, and innovative non drug therapies for insomnia. And I want to hear more about that later on today. As the director of the Adelaide insomnia clinic since 2004, Kristin has been at the forefront of sleep health, providing in depth assessments and treatments for a myriad of sleep disorders. Her commitment to this field is also reflected in her contributions to the Australian Psychological Society, College of clinical psychologists, and the Australian sleep Association. Today, she's here to share her wealth of knowledge and offer practical advice that can help you or business builders, not just chase your dreams, but also catch them every night. And just yeah, that's fantastic. And that's you. Brenton, you can take the boy out of advertising. You can take the advertising

Brenton Gowland:

might have written that introduction.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Great. Thank you so much for having me here today.

Ron Tomlian:

Thank you for being here. Christy. It's

Brenton Gowland:

a pleasure to have you and I can genuinely say we had Dr. Samantha young on a little while ago and Dr. Samantha said you must get Dr. Kristen camp on the show because she is an expert on sleep. And I have been looking forward to talking about this since we started this series. Yeah. lifework balance so lovely to have you with us. lovely

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

to be here. Thank you.

Ron Tomlian:

So to start with Kristin, can you share with our listeners how your journey and sleep psychology began? And what led you to specialise in the treatment of sleep disorders? Yes,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

well, my sleep journey began at Flinders University in 1987. And Flinders had a very strong sleep psychology stream, and that was under the leadership of Professor Leon lac. So he, as you mentioned, he's the world renowned sleep expert, and Leon was my supervisor for my honours thesis. And then I did the masters at Flinders and then I decided to explore the world a little bit and I went to family court and until I did my PhD at Family Court. And then I had a job working with sex offenders. That was a pretty tough gig. And then I worked at the Women's and Children's Hospital. And then I had a couple of kids myself. And then I reflected back on everything and thought, what do I really want to do for the rest of my life. And I circled right back to sleep disorders. And I started my practice in 2004, specialising in sleep disorders, and I can say with my hand on my heart that I absolutely love it. And the reason I decided to specialise in sleep disorders is because the treatments are very effective. And relative to say, treating depression or anxiety of the number of sessions, I probably only see my patients for about four sessions, unless there are more complex issues, though, I have some happy customers at the end. And I just love it being

Ron Tomlian:

married to a psychologist, I know what you're talking about in terms of sometimes the difficulties in treating some of the disorders that she sees, and to have that sort of lifestyle where you actually know you're going to be able to help almost categorically that would be wonderful.

Brenton Gowland:

And you mentioned that it's the treatments are not necessarily using drugs of any description, definitely non drug, yeah, any of your treatments, using drugs or as at night. So

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

psychologists don't prescribe drugs. So our philosophy would be let's try and fix the problem with using behavioural or cognitive treatments. So I'm getting people off drugs. Wow,

Brenton Gowland:

that's, to me. Very impressive. It's rewarding. I've had sleep problems in the past, and I've popped a pill here or there. That's been prescribed to me by a doctor. Yeah, of course. But I would never feel good about that.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess the media tells us a lot not to mention our GPS, I think there is that understanding that sleeping pills are addictive, and people develop tolerance to the sleeping pills. But by the time people get to me, they're often taking a couple of sleeping pills every night. So So there's two jobs. One is to get them sleeping better. But the second one is get them off the pill.

Brenton Gowland:

Are you saying the sleeping pills are not working? Yeah, definitely.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

By the time people get to me, it would be rare that the sleeping pills will be working. Because the sleeping pills like to measure Pam Oxazepam people develop a tolerance so they lose their effectiveness over time. Okay, well, we're

Brenton Gowland:

gonna get into it now. And because the Business Builders podcast is about talking to business professionals who are working on developing themselves in order to develop their businesses so important. Yeah. So given the high pressure environment that many business owners operate in and in during our pre chat, we discussed this a little bit. What are the early warning signs of insomnia that they should not ignore? Or we should not ignore? Because I've been suffered lack of sleep on many occasions during my business life

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

had to give you my card, just in case. Yeah. So typically, poor sleep in people who own their own business. Typically, it starts by a person will recognise that they're lying in bed, and they're thinking about what has happened in the day, or the things that didn't get done in the day. Were there any dramas that happened at work, were there any difficult personality issues with staff, and then they might be thinking about all the things they're going to do tomorrow. Because sometimes when a person gets to bed, it's the first time they've actually had time in the day to just reflect back on the day because they're so busy. And so people get into bed and start overthinking these things. And then what happens is they realise, oh, Archie, I haven't gone off to sleep yet. And Archie, I've only got six more hours left in bed. And then what happens inside of them is their adrenal system starts releasing stress hormones, because they are they're already stressed about what's been going on at work, but then they start to get stressed about not being able to go to sleep. So it's like a double whammy and then get the adrenal system releases cortisol, it releases adrenaline. And the whole idea of the stress hormones is to keep us awake. Because if you encounter a stressful situation in the day, Ron's mentioned a really good metaphor that I love about if you're hiking and you come across the snake on your hike, you're gonna get that adrenal response and the fight or flight reaction. And if you actually fall asleep when you see a snake that's not good for survival, so, so if we're stressed about work, or if we're stressed about sleep, then our adrenal system is just doing what it's programmed to do, which is really stress hormones and Hello, wakefulness.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, and we were talking earlier about the fact it's okay if that happens every now and again because yeah, your mind races will be for me at the moment that might happen once every three months. So I see that as a problem that I remember when I started my business way back when it would be every second night. Yes. So

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

good sleepers have bad nights every now and then. Yeah, even the sleep psychologist once in a while, I'll have a bad night. But a good sleeper will generally bounce back the next night. Whereas for person to technically have insomnia, the sleep problem has to last for about three months. And it has to be more often than not on time. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, they're not feeling good by the end of that.

Brenton Gowland:

So the early warning signs, then is that it's a prolonged period of time that more often than not, you're having a bad night's sleep.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yes. So there's the nighttime situation where a person is aware of overthinking in the night, having trouble to go to sleep, waking up in the night, having trouble going back to sleep, waking up too early, and switching on about what's happening in the day. But then there's also the daytime functioning. So people who if asleep problems building up, yeah, they'll drag themselves out of bed. But then they might start to get that adrenal response again, because they're thinking, Oh, my God, I didn't get much sleep last night. And now I got to, I got to do all my work today. And people overuse caffeine. Even driving to work, they might think, Oh, my God, like, Am I safe to be on the road? But then there's irritability. There's memory problems. And what else? Do people have attention? concentration problems? Yeah. So they're probably the common signs that a sleep disorder is developing. Okay,

Brenton Gowland:

that's really interesting. And I think that's some good food for thought. So all of us every now and again, we had a bad night's sleep. But what percentage of the people out there suffering insomnia from your experience? Yeah,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

so technically, what surveys will show is 15 to 20% of our population, have a sleep problem. So if you think of how many people you have in your workplace, yeah, 15 to 20% are probably having a sleep problem. And I was at the Australasian sleep conference last week. One of the amazing presenters, she, this is Amy Reynolds from Flinders uni, she presented some really fascinating information. If you've got a person who has a sleep disorder, at work, they are going to cost you $7,000 a

Brenton Gowland:

year. Yep. For what reason? Just because two years or more

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

absenteeism and presenteeism worry. Yeah. So a person who doesn't have a sleep disorder, on average will take or take a week off. In a year, I'm not talking about annual leave. But a person without a sleep disorder might have a week off in a year, but a person who has a sleep disorder will take four weeks off in that year, right because of that, because of the sleep problem. So that's absenteeism. But there's also presenteeism, which I think is really interesting, too, that if a person has a sleep disorder, they're not on their A game. That's right. Yeah. And so that's going to be costing the business as well. So what Amy was saying at the conference was, if you have good a staff member with a sleep disorder, it's actually going to be cheaper for you to send them off to get treated than it is to just keep them there.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so lucky summary, probably 15 to 20% of the people listening to this podcast, have a sleep disorder.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yes, like a diagnosable sleep disorder,

Brenton Gowland:

based on what you're saying? I was, the next question I was gonna ask you is about basically how chronic sleep disruption affects our daily performance. And I think you've really spoken into that. So we've talked about staff, what about business owners and entrepreneurs? How does that lack of sleep affect their performance? I'd imagine poor decisions in the business world about their businesses. And

Ron Tomlian:

yeah, we've talked about carrying an allostatic load previously. Yeah. And the problems associated with that. And oftentimes, it's because they got knocked again, enough sleep, things like taking twice as long to make decisions, not the being reflective, not being able to think strategically. But if you are not getting sleep, what are the performance indicators? Or what are the effects on performance that people will see as a result of not getting enough sleep?

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

So are you meaning like, if you're the boss in a workplace, and you're observing your staff, what would you say? No,

Ron Tomlian:

but I'm talking more about the actual entrepreneurs and owners themselves, you're not getting enough sleep, what effect does that have on your performance?

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Just so many effects, so what you the two of you and Sam have been talking about but you know, things like yeah, then you're not leading your business if you've got a slight problem, and the two of you and Sam talked so well about that, that if you're if you only business you have to be a leader. And that's different to managing people like you've been saying to. So you're not going to be leading your staff, you're going to be making poor decisions, not seeing the big picture, being irritable with staff, and also perhaps more likely to walk past bad behaviours in the workplace. And because I'm too tired to deal with it. And then there's a, unfortunately that affects on the culture of the staff. And, yeah, not so good.

Ron Tomlian:

No, not at all. And one of the things that we continually talk about is the need for the owner of the business so that the leader of the business to model the right sort of behaviour. And if you're modelling the sort of behaviour, because of a lack of sleep, it's not going to be the type of thing you want your staff to reflect back to

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

you. You're so right, yeah, if you're, if you're irritable yourself, then what message does that send to the rest of the staff, I

Brenton Gowland:

worry more about the impacts of bad decisions or making snap decisions. Because when you're tired and irritable, and I've seen this happen before with my business partners, when we get grumpy with each other, and you get grumpy when you're tired, because just small things, just sit off that bomb. And if you say the wrong thing and blow up at a staff member, it can have had ramifications. You

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

are so right. Yep. So anyone who has a sleep problem is not going to be as patient and tolerant as what they would normally be. And just sleep problems, I think, make us forget why we do this. Because it's too hard. You know, if you're tired, and you've got memory problems, and and you're irritable, and you're not making good decisions, then it's easy to set question of why am I doing this, but if a person is sleeping well, and they are on their A game during the day, then you enjoy your business more.

Ron Tomlian:

And that gets to the point of what is enough sleep? Yeah, good question. And a lot of people will say it's got, you've got to have eight hours on people so I can get by with five. And I'm sure that you're gonna tell us that everyone's different. But when should I be concerned as a business builder? When should I be concerned that I'm not getting enough sleep? Probably go

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

by daytime functioning? I would say because like you were saying, the average amount of sleep for an adult between the ages of about 30 and 75 is seven hours of sleep. So if you get on Dr. Google, and it says, if you're not getting eight hours of sleep or something wrong, well, that's not actually true. Sleep needs decline over our lifespan.

Brenton Gowland:

You said our sleep needs decline over a span. Yes. Why

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

that teenagers get about nine hours of sleep. When we're in our 20s. It goes down to eight, between the ages of 30 and 75. It goes down to seven. And then after the age of about 75. It goes down to six, six and a half. And one of the reasons we think that happens is because as we get older, we're more sedentary. And we're not moving around as much as a teenager. So I guess one of the morals of that story is don't stop moving your body. So the busier and the more active you are in the day, especially during your retirement, the more sleep you'll get. Wow,

Ron Tomlian:

that's really interesting. It's interesting, because you got a lot of nursing homes and all they seem to do is sleep. Yes. And that's what you're saying is that they can develop chronic sleep problems as a result.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah. With the amount of benzodiazepines that are handed out in Yeah, elderly care facilities. It's a worry.

Brenton Gowland:

So what if you get too much sleep? Right. So I probably exist on six hours sleep a night. That tends to be okay. Yeah, my partner probably sleeps about nine hours a night.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Does she sleep nine hours? So? Oh,

Brenton Gowland:

if I don't disturb her, yes. Is

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

it good quality sleep?

Brenton Gowland:

I think so most of the time. Yeah. So

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

you know, the law of averages. If the average for us adults is seven hours, then there are some people that need nine and there are some people that get away with six. So Brenton, if you weren't getting enough sleep, you will know about it in the day, you will be dragging yourself through mud through the day. And people know when they've got a sleep problem. They know when they're not functioning at their best. And I guess maybe that's when it's time to think well, maybe I should do something about it. But if you get six hours of sleep, and you feel like you function pretty well. But given that a good sleeper has a bit of fatigue in the afternoons, like that's normal. But if you feel like generally you're on your A game, six hours is enough here.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, but if we take that a step further, and we go, can you have too much sleep? As a gentleman? I know. When he went through depression, he couldn't get out of bed. Yes,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

yes. Sometimes when people have depression, they don't get enough sleep because they have a lot of early morning awakening, but some people oversleep and that's the way of hiding from the world. Yeah, so if I'm depressed, and I just pull back the covers over my head and try to go back to sleep. I don't have to deal with the world and also seasonal affective depression when people get The winter blues is also associated with oversleeping. Yeah,

Ron Tomlian:

especially in countries like Sweden and so on.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah, where there's a lot of sun now. Yeah, that's right. In Australia. Exactly. Beautiful sun,

Brenton Gowland:

if anyone from Sweden is listening, so we think Sweden is a great place to.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah, there's a good destination for a holiday. That's true. Okay.

Ron Tomlian:

Kristen, Could you walk us through a typical scenario you've encountered with business owners or entrepreneurs? How they develop insomnia? What, what causes it? Well,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

I have quite a bit of a case study that I could go through with you. So like I mentioned before, with a business owner, because it is a highly pressurised environment like that is true work demands are high. It seems like there's never enough time to get everything done. And then people lie awake in bed, thinking about it. So I'll give you a case study. So we've got Mary who's 50 years old. She's married with two teenagers and she lives in the city. She owned a business selling baby furniture and products. And she had about three shops and a staff of about 10. She had a husband who was in between jobs, he had been really stressed in his job and he wasn't working at the time. So she felt really financially responsible to keep the head moving ahead. And they were also building a house. And so she came to me with poor sleep. And yeah, taking a while to go off to sleep. She was waking for about two hours every night and overthinking all the stressful things that were going on in her world was taking at least an hour to go to sleep she was getting not even six hours of sleep. Probably most of my patients only are getting four or five hours of sleep in a night. And she was only asleep for 72% of the time she was in bed and for a good sleeper is asleep for 85% of the time they're in bed. Yep, so that's normal. She said she would stay in bed during the night until it was futile. And then she would get up and watch TV. She said she was feeling washed out when she got out of bed. So not refreshed at all. Like she'd been in a tumble dryer all night. She felt tired driving to work at work. She said she was going through the motions. She was flat at work. She was not enthusiastic, not motivated. She said she was pretty much able to meet deadlines, but she just couldn't be bothered. You know, so she was losing the why of why she was doing her business. People at work said they noticed that she didn't look happy. This was a real trouble for her. She had one of our staff members who had a bit of a personality issue. He caused troubles with other staff members, but he was the best for sales. So she felt really torn that he was doing some really good sales for her business. But he he created some chaos with her staff. So there was that dilemma do I do I keep mine or do I let go of him. She was drinking a couple of glasses of wine every night to try and relax. Sometimes people drink wine as a sleep age because it can make us sleepy, but it actually disrupts their sleep, it suppresses the dreaming sleep later on in the night. So we wake up and find it hard to go back to sleep. She was also napping in front of the TV, which is definitely not a good sign. Because napping in front of the TV before bed is like having a snack before dinner, you're not going to be so hungry if you have a snack before dinner. So she nap before bed, you're not going to be so sleepy, and you're not going to have such a good night. So she was getting into bed overthinking and not being able to stay asleep. So for my plan with married, the first thing I had to do was I had to go to sleeping well again, okay. And I she was also anxious about her sleep. So I had to teach her some skills about how to manage her sleep anxiety. But we also had to explore her goals for work. So some of the things the brilliant things you've mentioned on your podcast before is asking yourself like what is your definition of success? Here? I am content with how you live in your life. What are the pros and cons of living the way you do? Like she wasn't spending enough time with our kids. And she was working like more than 50 hours a week and just burning the candle at both ends. And she clearly wasn't happy. And I we also talked about that really good question of when you're 80. And you look back on your life. Will you be glad that you live this way? Or will you have regrets? Like is this a life well lived? So we also had to look at those things to help her prevent relapsing. Because if you can improve a person's sleep, but if you send them back into the fire, it's like if a person has been bullied at work, we have to address the bullying as well. Otherwise, there's only so much that we can do so I so yes, so that I'm not sure if that might be a segue into talking about how we actually do improve a person's sleep. I think that would be a really helpful thing for the listeners to hear about. Absolutely, yes. So. So given that Mary was she was taking about an hour scarf to sleep, and she was awake for a couple of hours every night overthinking, and she was only asleep for 72% of the time she was in bed. And sometimes it can be worse than that, for other people, like they might only be asleep for 50 or 60% of the time they're in bed. So here is the good news, though really quick news, there are very effective behavioural treatments to get a person sleeping well, and they are what I have found over 20 years is the most effective way to get a person sleeping well, again, is a treatment called bedtime restriction. So I'll tell you all about it. So often, a person who has insomnia is spending about nine hours in bed, so that and the reason they're doing that is they're thinking thoughts, like I'm sleeping so badly, I've got to get into bed early, I was napping on the couch, maybe I just need to get into bed. And they snooze their alarms for as long as they can in the morning. And then it's a mad rush to get going in the morning. So so often, people with insomnia are spending about nine hours in bed. But going back to what I was saying before, the average amount of sleep for a good sleeper is seven hours. So if you spend nine hours in bed, but the average amount of sleep for an adult is seven, you should expect to be awake for two hours every night. So what bedtime restriction does is it restricts the person to bed for a very short period of time, for one week, and the short period of time, hold on is only six hours. Okay? So, for example, they get into bed at 12. And they get out about a six just as an example. Now, if you imagine doing that, only spending six hours in bed every night for a week, where you can probably imagine, is after a couple of nights of doing this, people get very sleepy. And I don't mean a little bit sleepy, I mean very sleepy. Because what we know very clearly about insomnia is when a person gets into bed and they've got insomnia, they've lost their sleepiness. So when a good sleeper gets into bed, they feel sleepy. And when a good sleeper wakes up in the middle of the night, they still feel sleepy and they go back to sleep. But when a person has insomnia, they've lost that sleepiness. And that's because of the adrenal response. So, of course, the person is going to be stressed if they're not sleeping well. And their body. The reason why is because their body's releasing stress hormones. And so So hello, wakefulness in night. So what the treatment aims to do is to retrain a person's sleep mechanism about how to feel sleepy again. So we all have this process inside of us, and we call it process S. And we keep it simple and flip psychology. The s just stands for sleepiness. Okay? So process S is what we call a homeostatic drive inside of us. So we have other homeostatic drives. One is hunger, and one is thirst. So the reason we have these homeostatic drives is to try and keep balanced in our body. So our brain and our body loves it. When we're in beautiful balance. When we're getting enough food, we're getting enough water, and we're getting enough sleep. So if we don't eat food all day, we're gonna get hungry. If we don't drink enough water, we're gonna get thirsty. So if I restrict a person to bed for only six hours a night, they are going to get sleepy. So so it taps into this homeostatic drive for sleep, and it retrains the person sleep mechanism about how to feel sleepy again. And even though it's hard, people love feeling sleepy again. It's like, Ah, I'm looking forward to getting into bed I beds becoming a nice place to be again. But it is hard to only spend six hours in bed and it's hard to get out of bed in the morning. But fortunately, most of my patients are soldiers than they do it. You gotta be careful about them driving into work when they're doing the six hour restriction because they're going to be more tired in that first week.

Brenton Gowland:

I've heard that lack of sleep is equivalent to being under the influence of alcohol. Yeah, that's true. Yep.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

So reaction time is down. Yeah, people aren't paying attention as much. Yeah, so so the first week is pretty tough, but what happens After about three nights of doing that is people start to go to sleep quicker. It reduces over the wakefulness in the night. So if a person is sleeping more in the night, they're not thinking in the night. So for 80% of my patients be fine. I get them sleeping better. I don't even have to address thinking in the night, because if they're sleeping, they're

Brenton Gowland:

thinking. So that's one week you do that for? Yes.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

And then week two, you add half an hour to the timing bed. Yes. So you build up this thing called sleep pressure, which is the homeostatic drive for sleep. And then in week two, you add half an hour, and people are so sleepy, they will kill for more time in bed. So you add on the extra half an hour, and they get up to another half an hour of sleep six and a half hours sleep a night. Yep. So and then even though they're getting more sleep in week two, it's still not enough time in bed, obviously. So then every week after that, we try and add another half an hour. And as long as they're still sleepy, that will keep getting more sleep. And usually it's about six to eight weeks of doing this, we get to a stage where they will know themselves. There is no point adding more time on to bed because if they do, they're going to lose their sleepiness. So one of the biggest messages coming back to the question about preventing sleep disorders is you've got to be sleepy when you get into your bed. And if you're not sleepy, you're probably not going to go off to sleep. So this is a really paradoxical thing that when people come to say sleep psychologists, you know, when I say to them, Well, the way we fix this is you're going to spend less time in bed they go well, how does that work? How am I going to get more sleep by spending less time in bed? That's great. Yeah, but it's an amazing treatment, though. It's it is very effective.

Brenton Gowland:

So what does that say for Saturday sleep ins? Yeah, they do things to do.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Good questions. So for a good sleeper absolutely can have a sleep in and take a cup of coffee back to bed, read the paper. So a good sleeper can do those things. Because it also it's associating your bed with something really nice to do. But a person who has insomnia is usually stressing in their bed. And they're overthinking things, and they've got that hyper arousal response. And bed isn't a nice place to be. So if you're a good sleeper, you absolutely can have a Saturday morning Sleeping, or you're lying in bed and go through some social media or read a book or a good sleeper gets away with my pattern

Brenton Gowland:

with my partner. And I don't know about you, Ron. But we flip through all the social media before bed. And then in the morning, I'm reading the paper in bed and on my phone and all that.

Ron Tomlian:

But going through social media, and I'm not incorrect. Any type of screen time before bed, the blue light helps keep you asleep, or awake. I should say,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

that is true these days, though, fortunately, the screens have those night shift functions on. So if you've got the night shift function on which tends to screen a little bit orangey, what research will show very clearly is it's the blue green wavelengths of light that suppress the hormone called melatonin. And if melatonin is suppressed, we're not so sleepy. Whereas if the night shift function is taking out the blue green light, then the light from the screen isn't necessarily going to interfere with sleep bath for teenagers, even though they've got their night shift function on sometimes the things that they're looking at are stimulating. And so it's not just the light from the screens that can interfere with sleep, but it's what a person's intent

Brenton Gowland:

is. So that leads us onto another thought which was doing COVID A lot of people use their bedrooms as their workstation, right. And I told you that when I was younger, and I was sharing house with a few people, my bedroom also had my desk and I was running my business from my bedroom, sidewalk, three steps and be in bed and three steps in me and my workstation. How many of your clients have those kinds of issues that their bedroom doubles as a workspace? Look

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

that kept me in business over COVID are the number of patients I had, where the isolation and the lock downs were contributing to sleep problems. I had such a long waiting list. Definitely that was a problem also, just on that as well. When people couldn't go into work, there's no commute. So people were staying longer in bed and going on what I was just saying before, if you spend longer in bed, you're going to pay off all of that sleep pressure. And also when people work from home sometimes they would have the option Should have perhaps having a bit of a nap in the afternoon. But there was no lifework balance during that time because people had a little bit more freedom to decide when they worked. So they might turn a load of washing, take the dog for a walk, and then work after dinner and work in their beds,

Brenton Gowland:

that I know people who did that I did that. And

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

it's still a very common problem with uni students. So they study in their beds. Yeah. So we do need to have that delineation between where we sleep and where we work.

Brenton Gowland:

And if you're a force, because when we talk about uni, students, a lot of them if they're staying near the uni, they'll usually have like a one bedroom place with a kitchen and everything on the same space. Yes, how do they create separation, then one

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

of my patients at the moment she gets home from work, she puts her jammies on she sits on the couch, and puts the TV on might go and hit something in the microwave, eats a dinner on the couch, and then ends up going to sleep on the couch. But yet to delineate that, I'd say, definitely don't sleep on the couch, but have the bed as a separate place in the studio. And just make sure that you don't work or live in your bed like we shouldn't live in our beds. Beds are really meant for sleep, so so

Brenton Gowland:

try as much as you can to keep the bedroom or well it really does become the bedroom, right? Because the bed is the main thing in the room generally, as the bedroom. Yeah, spend less time in it. Yet

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

don't live in your bed. I could sleep her can a good sleeper can read a book before they go to sleep. A good sleeper can read the paper or even a good sleep or god forbid, can flick through social media, you know, use the screen in bed, but we still go off to sleep. Because a good sleeper isn't stressed about their sleep. We just know what's going to happen. Yeah, so it's really that stressing about your sleep like thinking, you know, I've been good today, I didn't have much caffeine, I did some relaxation after work. I should be good to go tonight. So there's this analogy of imagine if you're walking through a food court, and all you can see is food around you. When a person isn't sleeping? Well, their whole day is thinking about, is this going to be good for my sleep tonight? Or is this gonna be bad? Or I can't do this, or I should do that? Because it might affect my sleeps, right? So people who have poor sleep, are thinking about their sleep all the time. But that's not what a good sleeper does not just know what's going to happen.

Brenton Gowland:

All right. So you've talked to us a little bit about how you treat insomnia? What about preventing insomnia? For those of us who are listening right now and going, maybe I'm spending too much time in my bedroom right now. Could you maybe talk to us about the people who are juggling the demands of business and like your client, you were saying he comes home and still works and she's on the couch? But if we're talking to business people who are starting to go or maybe maybe I'm spending too much time in my bed, how can we act to prevent insomnia? Not that I want to do you out of any business, but so that we don't need to go to sleep expert.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah. Well, things like only get into bed when you're sleepy. So for some of my patients, I have to talk them through like, what would you do? What would you do if you had an extra couple of hours every day? I actually love having that conversation because it's about having a life balance, isn't it so you can't just work and go to bed. Like we're supposed to have leisure time where we do our hobbies and interests and spend time with our family and go out with our friends. And so I when I'm telling a person to stop a bit later or get out of bed earlier, then I get excited about it. It's like, right, you've always wanted to be one of those people that get up in the morning and go for a walk or do some exercise or go to the gym. You have a hobby in making candles or you have a hobby in something creative. You like photography, yeah. But they've shoved all that in the spare room and they haven't been doing any of their interests or hobbies. So it's nice homework. It's like when Ron gives us the challenge of organising holidays nice homework, isn't it? So have a life like have a life outside of work. And if you get home from work, and you just plunk yourself in front of the TV, it's okay. But what that can also lead to is getting into bed a bit early or napping on the couch and thinking oh, well, I must be sleepy. I'll just get into bed. And then hello nine hours in bed. But if you've got some hobbies or interests that you do, engage in that after work. And yeah, not napping,

Brenton Gowland:

so keep active to stop yourself from getting into bed. Early. Yeah, it's interesting read Really interesting.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah. And don't sleep in too late, don't if you're snoozing it every 10 minutes, really, that's wasted time. And it's not pleasant. It's not pleasant.

Brenton Gowland:

I do that probably three times every morning, I'm hearing

Ron Tomlian:

from you is that being engaged in something just being passive. And that's one of the problems with watching TV or streaming services is on. It's a passive form of entertainment that we don't really have to be engaged with. And it allows us to drift. Yes, sir. Right. And so what I'm hearing from you is do something that engages you enjoy. But that gets you involved? Yes. Rather than being passive?

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Absolutely, yeah. If if there are some community clubs that you've always wanted to join, or if you want to do a Wi Fi course, let somebody sometimes when people have a slight problem, they cancel and opt out of social engagements after work, because they think up I might be too stimulated, and then I'll get into better night's sleep. But that just means the person is missing out on life. Sometimes, like if you go to the GP, sometimes the GP will hand you over that sleep hygiene advice, that you're not allowed to drink coffee and allergic alcohol, you're not allowed to go out and be too stimulated, you have to wind down, you're not allowed to get on a screen, which ends up being a little bit like the frontal lace. And some people are following those rules so strictly, but they're not having a life. And good sleepers don't have to do that. What

Brenton Gowland:

strikes me as well is, I think your advice about getting your hobby and doing other things is actually good for business people as well, when because we were talking with Dr. Smith young. And it becomes she said it's a syndrome, it's a cycle, you've got to find ways to break the cycle, and you got to find ways to stimulate yourself in other ways, then, always thinking about work. That

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

is Surrett Branson, and because I think things like having hobbies and interests, and like Ron talks about all the time is having a holiday. If you're a business owner, you probably less likely to have holidays, because you think Well, I haven't got the time. But you know what, as soon as you get in the car, and you're travelling down the highway to go where or carrickalinga, then it then you get perspective, you get down to the beach or something and you want that beach and you think why do I stay so long at work? Sometimes we think if I'm not putting in all these hours, the sun won't come up and the earth or strawberry roving, but we can, it's I think it's about creating the evidence that you actually can do it. And then when you start doing it regularly having hobbies or interests or going away on holidays, and you realise that the ship keeps moving in the same direction, then that's

Brenton Gowland:

really interesting. I love that, that you need to create evidence. And that goes back to what you were saying run when you started. One of your jobs. Ron said this a while ago with a work life balance series that he took four or six weeks holidays right at the start. And someone said to you have a TEC chair, you can't have holidays. And you're like why I just didn't know any better? Well, the

Ron Tomlian:

thing is that sometimes we impose rules are we think there are rules about what we can and can't do.

Brenton Gowland:

Because you've imposed on yourself because you've

Ron Tomlian:

imposed on yourself. Now when I started becoming a tech chair, I didn't realise that you couldn't take six weeks holiday, but that wasn't the norm. So I'd already organised it. I took six weeks, and I worked around it. And these other guys when I would talk to them about it said I didn't know you could do that. Well, why didn't you know? Because you'd never ask the question. And you'd

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

go on a scale of zero to 100, where 100 is the hardest things you have to do. Going away on a holiday isn't all that hard, you know, I do about

Brenton Gowland:

this owner, though. Yeah, point like I notoriously didn't take holidays because I was worried that everything would just collapse. And that that obviously in retrospect means either you don't trust your people or you are not a good business leader. And I'll say that out there. I've learned through time and pain, to take holidays and to do those things. But sometimes it doesn't come naturally to business. People. Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

And people have these beliefs about things. I remember one of my members of my tech group, he had a dream that he wants to take six months off when he turned 50. But that's never going to happen. It's never gonna have six months, six months now. We took that dream, and we made it for the group a challenge to help him set things up. And eventually he took six weeks off. Yeah, that's doable. Well, it's doable. Yeah. And he was still concerned about it, but he did it and he had the mechanisms in place where somebody could look after the business in the business. He came back From that six weeks, and he went to the Greek islands, I actually caught up with him there. And the business had made more money while he was away, and then had in the previous six months,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Wow, isn't that frown, and his petrol tank is full. And then he's going to be working.

Ron Tomlian:

I'm happy to say that he went on to take about three months a year off. That's brilliant. But he had the mechanisms in place to help him do that. But that was because he was able to break the belief, which was only a self imposed belief, if he was able to break the belief that's interesting. Do something. Business

Brenton Gowland:

Builders need to work on themselves? Absolutely. Right. How

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

many times have you said that? Over this podcast?

Brenton Gowland:

A lot? Yeah. But it sinks in, right? Because I was lucky enough to find mentors along the way, was one of them earlier on. We've had Tanya Conte on here, she was another of my mentors. But these people got stuck into me about well, when you're doing this well, that you probably should think about doing something different. And I think people who are running businesses, people who are growing through the business journey really do need coaches and mentors. And that's the role we try to take with this podcast is just have that voice so that they can think about sometimes other things than work. There's more to life

Ron Tomlian:

than absolutely anything that perspective that you talked about before. So important, and maybe we can do some of that through the podcast.

Brenton Gowland:

So moving on from that, then we've talked about all of these benefits. So let's say we were doing what Brenton used to do way back when doesn't take holidays doesn't take breaks doesn't sleep? Well. Hopefully, none of our listeners are doing that. But there might be one or two. What are the long term consequences of ongoing sleep deprivation that they should be aware of that maybe can help motivate them to think about making some changes in their life and their sleep patterns? Yeah,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

well, one of the obvious ones is burning out. That's a long term consequence. i Not all of my patients are burnt out, thank goodness, but some of them are. And perhaps if they had have gone on to the sleep problem and the anxiety and the stress a bit earlier, they could have prevented that. But mainly the long term consequences of not sleeping well. More on the mental health areas. So definitely anxiety, definitely depression. And, and there is a little bit of talk in the media that if you don't sleep, well, then you're going to end up with dementia. And it was really interesting at the Australasian sleep conference. Last week, Flinders University did an excellent study just recently. So it's a meta analysis where they collated all the results of randomised controlled studies for people that have had insomnia, and good sleepers. So they looked at the lifespan. So the longevity of those two groups, and if people with insomnia got dementia, they would die sooner. That's just how the logic goes. But there was no significant difference between the lifespan of people who had insomnia and normal sleepers. Yeah, it's, it's, I guess, there's a couple of media personalities that they cherry pick little bits of research here and there to create wildfires, so to speak, and get people really anxious about Oh, my God, if I don't sleep, I'm gonna get insomnia, and I'm gonna get dementia, and it sells their books, and they make lots of money out of it. But I think it's good news that if you've got insomnia, you're not looking down the barrel of dementia. And it's very well treated. So the number of people that come into my practice, who have read those books, or listened to those TED talks, or listening to those particular podcasts, and they say, Kristen, I'm going to get dementia if I don't sleep better. So I can reassure them and say that that is not conclusive science. Obviously, everyone wants to sleep better. And that can be easily done. But the anxiety that it stirred up in the community, but yet the certainly the science is not conclusive stirring

Brenton Gowland:

up that anxiety because there's a lot of people have sleep problems, like you said, 2015 to 20%. And I would if I'm, when I have had sleep problems, I think things I did is I got online and found those delta wave songs that go on and on for eight hours. And I think it might have helped maybe it was a subconscious thing. But I'd leave that playing beside my bed. And I actually remember researching, well, how do I sleep better? How do I lose sleep? And that's how I got onto that delta wave music. Yeah, you would imagine people go out there and try and find resources. So they would come across these books. Yeah.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah, that's right. And so yeah, so I think the takeaway message is that if you have good insomnia, it's very treatable. And there's no point making there's no point a person getting all anxious that oh my god, I'm gonna get done. and share or have a stroke or have cardiovascular problems. There are other sleep disorders that have those as risk factors like sleep apnea. Okay, that's not insomnia. Yeah. So definitely my patients are at risk of anxiety and depression and burnout. And that's certainly not good. And if a person is burnt out, it affects their relationships, as well. So it's worth preventing, rather than curing, I would say,

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

But the good news is, it's

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

treatable, definitely. So

Ron Tomlian:

if you have these sort of problems, and this is advice for our business builders, if you have these sort of problems, seek out professional help. And the good thing from my perspective, I hate putting drugs into my body unless I choose to, but I hate having to take drugs, there are treatments that don't really rely on you becoming potentially addicted to some type of pharmaceutical treatment. And then that to me, that's fantastic.

Brenton Gowland:

It'd be terrible to rely on a drug for sleep, that wouldn't just be the worst.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Absolutely. And some of my patients rattle when they come in. But yeah, cognitive behaviour therapy for insomnia is well known that it should be the first line treatment and doctors know that too. So but yeah, I guess sometimes people think, but is there a quick fix? And I guess also good news is if a person is taking sleeping medication, and they want to withdraw from that will, that's also something that a sleep psychologist will do. I certainly do it. So

Ron Tomlian:

Chris, and just to wrap up here on business builders podcast, we offer practical advice to business professionals. Yep. So as we wrap up, could you share your top three tips or piece of advice for those seeking help? Or looking to improve their sleep even when they're dealing with high stress levels?

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yes. So this, I think the most practical thing, given what we've talked about today is don't spend too much time in bed. And make sure that you sleepy when you get into bed.

Brenton Gowland:

I actually really liked that. It's sort of what you would think. Yeah, kind of rings true for me. And you heard it

Ron Tomlian:

here first on the business building. Yeah.

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Because if you can be relaxed when you get into bed, but that's not sleepy. Yeah, you've got to be sleepy in your eyes. The second bit of practical advice, I would say is, try not to worry in bed. Like if you're aware that you're worrying in bed, that can be a sign to do something about that. So go and see GP perhaps get a referral to see a psychologist. Because what we do is we teach people how to let go of worries how to not dwell on the past, how to live in the present, so and the third bit of advice I'd say is try to love your bed. Love, you've had good sleepers love their bed. But people with insomnia, they don't love their bed. Bed is a place where they flip around like a rotisserie chicken and lay overthinking and toss and turn. Meanwhile, their partner's snoring their heads off, and they wish they could do that. So try to love your bed and don't work in your bed. So

Brenton Gowland:

does that mean also invest in your bed and slash bedroom?

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Yeah. Well, I guess if you've got the resources to do that. I guess it is important to feel comfortable when you're in a bed. And yeah, well, I think bedrooms are worth investing in. But I wouldn't say like, if some if someone came to see me, I wouldn't say go and buy a $3,000 bed. And that's going to fix your problems. But bed a bed should be a nice place to get. Yeah.

Brenton Gowland:

So the other one is seeing it asleep. Psychologist so you talked about worrying you'll be we go see a doctor or psychologist. How if you're in Adelaide, South Australia, and you're listening to this, how do they find you, Kristen? Well, Google,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

I guess if you Google sleep psychologist, there's about 30,000 psychologists in Australia. And there's only about 30 full time equivalent sleep psychologists so there's not many of us around and there's perhaps only about four or five full time equivalent sleep psychologists in Adelaide so definitely, definitely if you Google sleep psychologist in Adelaide, most of us will come up there's also on the Australian Psychological Society website there's a find a psychologist search engine. And but here's something to like there. The treatments for insomnia are very specialised and not everybody gets that training. So if you have got a sleep problem, and you go to see a psychologist and they perhaps teach relaxation skills or mindfulness skills, and they're not doing a restriction, or something like a behavioural treatment like that, you might be missing out on a very big component of the of good sleep therapy. Yeah, so yeah, so definitely if you've got a sleep problem, try and say sleep psychologist and your

Brenton Gowland:

business is called Adelaide insomnia clinic. So if you're in Adelaide look up Adelaide insomnia clinic and Dr. Kristen Kim, if you're in Australia, it was this What did you say?

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

She Australian Psychological Society website has a search engine? Yeah, but sometimes psychologists who haven't got that specialised training, they will say, Yes, I'll help you with your sleep. But it really needs to have that bedtime restriction component to it to be really effective know

Brenton Gowland:

that the person is a qualified sleep psychologist. Yeah,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

you probably have to ask them or otherwise often on the websites, they might say that, I think, like, if I think of the sleep psychologist in Adelaide, most of us, that's all we do. Yeah. So Adelaide insomnia clinic, you'd be pretty sure we're going to be talking about insomnia.

Brenton Gowland:

And I would imagine, for our international listeners, did there's similar services globally, I would have definitely,

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

yeah, absolutely. It's yeah, fortunately, slip psychologists are worldwide. And as I said, cognitive behaviour therapy for insomnia is well known, backed up by science, plenty of evidence that it is the first line treatment for insomnia.

Brenton Gowland:

I have a feeling we're on that we could talk about this a lot longer, because there's a bunch of other questions I've got burning in my head, but we've run out of time.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, there's always the potential to get Kristyn back.

Brenton Gowland:

To come back at a future date Kristyn to

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

check her lifework balance.

Ron Tomlian:

Well done.

Brenton Gowland:

So if you are listening, this is part of the lifework balance series, as Kristin was talking about. We talked with Dr. Samantha Jung a few weeks ago, and before that, we talked about why you should actually prioritise your life balance. So plenty of material if you've just started listening, and we've got a few episodes before Christmas run two episodes to go. I

Ron Tomlian:

think we're episodes to go and we'll continue the series until the end of the year. Okay,

Brenton Gowland:

so we'll finish it off just before Christmas.

Ron Tomlian:

And then stay the new year with a new new topic. Okay,

Brenton Gowland:

well, it's been lovely chatting with you. Dr. Kristen

Dr Kristyn Kemp:

Kane, lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. And

Brenton Gowland:

thank you everyone who's been listening. It's goodbye from me.

Ron Tomlian:

And goodbye from me and goodbye for me.