Business Builders Podcast

The Burnout Antidote with Samantha Young

• Brenton Gowland & Ron Tomlian • Season 3 • Episode 53

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In this second part of our discussion with CEO and Clinical Psychologist Samantha Young, we continue to explore the intricate issue of burnout, especially how to handle it in the workplace and prevent its occurrence.

It's a lot like figuring out how to manage your phone's battery - turning off those constant notifications, letting it recharge fully, and making sure it doesn't overheat from non-stop use. We'll talk about managing our energy levels, setting boundaries, and making sure we have enough time for downtime in our busy lives.

In this episode, Samantha is going to walk us through it all. We're going to look at how Business Builders (Leaders) can make a difference in creating a work environment that takes care of mental health and supports everyone's wellbeing. So, get ready to learn about how to reset and recharge. It's all about moving from just getting by to really thriving in our high-speed world.

Key Topics

  1. Recurrent Nature of Burnout: We delve into the cyclical nature of burnout and its implications for workplace well-being.

  2. Leadership's Role in Well-being: We discuss the critical role leaders play in cultivating a supportive work culture that prioritises employee well-being and enables recovery from burnout.

  3. Perception vs Reality: We explore the disconnect between leader perceptions and the frontline reality, shedding light on how this gap can contribute to workplace stress and burnout.

  4. Lip Service Policies and Token Programs: We examine the impact of superficial policies and programs on exacerbating stress and burnout, emphasising the need for genuine commitment and action.

  5. Toxic Behaviors to Avoid: We identify and discuss a range of toxic behaviours that contribute to a stressful work environment, including glorifying busyness, weaponising resilience, and fostering a crisis mentality.

  6. Initiating Conversations about Mental Health: We share strategies for starting meaningful dialogues about mental health in the workplace, breaking down stigma and promoting understanding.

  7. Understanding Mental Health and Well-being: We emphasise the importance of building a comprehensive understanding of mental health and well-being among all employees.

  8. Frontline Engagement: We underscore the value of leaders getting out onto the frontline, engaging directly with employees, and gaining firsthand insights into their experiences.

  9. Open Communication and Psychological Safety: We discuss how open communication can foster psychological safety, enabling employees to express their concerns and needs with
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Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Business Builders Podcast. Until next time, KEEP ON BUILDING !!

Brenton Gowland:

Hey there Business Builders. Today we're back with Samantha Young tackling how leaders can combat burnout and create a healthier workplace culture, in our series on Life-Work balance. We'll explore how to dismantle toxic behaviours and foster an environment that prioritises mental health and well being. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts. I am Brenton Gowland.

Ron Tomlian:

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

And, Ron, we've got Samantha back with us this week. Yes, sort of part two. Part two. Well, hello, Samantha. How are you?

Samantha Young:

Hey, Brenton and, Ron, I'm fantastic. How are you?

Ron Tomlian:

Excellent, excellent. With this spring weather that we're having here in Adelaide. It's just it makes life worthwhile.

Brenton Gowland:

It really does. And look, I've got to say, it's great to have you back. I feel like this is one podcast episode that we've split over two sessions. Because last time we spoke about what is burnout, and I had a few people responding to me and talking about just how good they thought the episode was. And one person said, I think I'm gonna quit my job now. Oh, no. That's what we were trying to achieve. Yeah.

Samantha Young:

Tempting. And I think it's quite a common reaction sometimes if people are feeling burnt out, but it's definitely not necessarily the solution.

Brenton Gowland:

No, I agree. But very interesting that it started to really make me and the people that I spoke to, and I'm sure everyone who's listened to it really think about accumulated stress, I guess you could say, overworking and all the scenarios we talked about in the last episode start to create that cycle of burnout. And then at some point, something goes pop.

Samantha Young:

I think it's a bit of a lifestyle phenomenon burner. It's more like a recurrent condition, and you can cycle through it. And so it's a burnout cycle. And so do you break down and bounce back and everyone's got a different cycle. But when you bounce back, then you're like, oh, everything's fine. And then until you hit the next cycle of hitting down again. So first stage in solving a problem is diagnosing the problem.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, and so we spoke last week about recognising the problem, and today is dealing with the problem. So Ron, how should we introduce Sam this time? I mean, we did it last time,

Ron Tomlian:

I was just gonna say people should know who she is. But in case they don't. Samantha Jung, the psychologist from human psychology, the CEO of Human Psychology.

Samantha Young:

I can talk about this topic for days. So yeah, we've only got an hour right?

Brenton Gowland:

That's correct. So if you want to know more about Sam, go and listen to the last episode we did, and you have a full introduction. But Sam will add a lot of value to you if you listen into this episode about how to deal with burnout. So with that, we may as well get cracking and get into it. So my first question for you Samantha, is can we start by looking at the top because those people who run a business, the business builders, the CEOs, the management, they're the ones who set the pattern? So could we discuss then potentially the role of the leader or the founder in cultivating a workplace culture that prioritises well being and supports recovery from burnout?

Samantha Young:

Absolutely. So obviously, the leaders first and I think primary purpose is to create culture, and you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast, and all that good stuff. And this has got to start at the top. And what we frequently see in organisations is a disconnect between leader perceptions and what's actually going on in the frontline. So can I share with you a couple of quotes? Absolutely. These are from Beyond Blue. So the first is around 90% of employees think mental health is an important issue for businesses. I don't know what the other 10% are doing. Right, but 90%, but only 50% believe their workplace is mentally healthy. So there's that and then, despite one in five of us of Australians experiencing mental health problems Each year, nearly half that is nearly half of all senior managers believe none of their workers will experience a mental health problem at work. So denial ain't just a river in Egypt. Yeah. So there's this disconnect between leadership perceptions and what's actually going on at the frontline.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, well, well, that's an interesting point, because it's almost like putting your head in the sand as a leader, isn't it?

Samantha Young:

Literally? Yeah, literally. And we know from again, the research that if the CEO as perceived and are perceived as a key word here is perceived as genuinely valuing mental health. There will be a massive ripple effect throughout the organisation. So as an example, if people believe their workplace is mentally healthy, the majority will also believe the CEO is committed to mental health. Conversely, if they don't believe the CEO is committed to mental health, they also won't believe their workplace is physically safe. So perceptions reality, and if CEOs aren't walking the talk, if it's just some nice words on a page or the occasional kind of flippant comment about well being that is going to filter through down throughout the organisation.

Brenton Gowland:

So why do you think CEOs, as you said, 50% of them don't think it's ever going to be a problem?

Samantha Young:

It's a bit of that not in my backyard, like, I know what happens, that doesn't happen here, because that might be a reflection on me. I also think there's a hangover, maybe from last century that people should leave their stuff at home, and I'm paying you good money to come in and do a job. And really, I'm not paying for you to bring your stuff into work, your mental health issues into work. I think there's also still some misunderstanding around mental health and well being. And so then I just don't know what to do as a CEO to promote a mentally healthy culture.

Brenton Gowland:

And that's an interesting thing, too. I wonder, because that's a generational thinking, example that you've given there. Do you think it's because CEOs tend to be older because I have more experience that that thinking has permeated that group of people?

Samantha Young:

Yes. And I guess it's also Well, I got to where I am. And I'm okay. Maybe. And so you should be as well.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. Toughen up, Princess.

Samantha Young:

Yes. Yes. teaspoon of cement glass of water hardener. Yeah. That's a great Australian saying right?

Ron Tomlian:

And, and that's, I think part of the problem is that there's a sort of jingoism about all this, that that's what I grew up with. And I'm okay. Maybe? And why can't you be and I had to go through it. I mean, when you look at some of the workplace cultures, as you talked about, when you talk about, for instance, specialist, medical specialists, and what they have to go through to become a medical specialist in terms of shift work, and so on. And you talk to senior specialists. And you say, Well, why that meant, that doesn't make sense what they have to go through, why did you not so there is a, there's a problem with what I had to go through being good for you. And it made me the person I am today. Yeah. But part of the problem is it made you the person you are today.

Samantha Young:

And also misunderstanding the metrics. So seeing investing in wellbeing initiatives as a cost or an expense rather than an investment. And if people are our greatest asset, and all of that way, no. Minimum $2.30 return on investment for every dollar invested in genuine well being initiative. 150%. Yeah. So and they just had cold, factual finances, right, but they come out of a different part of the p&l. So we're talking reductions in WorkCover, claims, absenteeism, productivity, etc. That's not costed in the same cost line as spending on wellbeing initiatives. So I think a lot of CEOs are still seeing this as a cost to the business rather than an investment.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, and I hate to say this, but where you put your money is where you put your value, right? So that says to me that CEOs don't value their people really, other than getting a job done, which is fair enough. But when you have people working for you, if you're not taking care of the whole machine, you're not really enabling people to do their jobs, right.

Samantha Young:

I think one casualty of leadership for many leaders is actually their heart.

Brenton Gowland:

Ooh, talk to us about that. So if we

Samantha Young:

stopped believing the best about people and focus on patterns in the work and not people, people promise and don't deliver, and then we kind of armour up, harden up, and we stop looking for flickers of light and focus on shortcomings in his heart, a heart becomes a new normal, we focus on business growth and profitability, but their outcomes, the outcomes of other things. So rather than viewing, valuing, and developing people as a cost, maybe it's actually a gateway to both if we empower people to have great well being that is the gateway to profitability and growth.

Ron Tomlian:

And I think you're right, I think you're right. And that brings me to our next question, in terms of values. Samantha, can you highlight some toxic behaviours, which is the result of values that leaders should avoid to prevent exacerbating stress and burnout amongst employees? Specifically, and this is the kicker could you touch on the impact of lip service policies and tick and flick token programmes?

Samantha Young:

Yeah, you know, people are our greatest asset we said before well being so saying the words but not walking the talk in terms of genuine vestment and the classic there is your Wexham nice cupcakes and in the break room for Are you okay day and have a morning tea and that's your token initiative. I have wondered what those cupcakes and there's nothing wrong with celebrating Are you okay day or cupcakes. But if that's all you're doing, that this needs to be embedded in the DNA to conflict stuff like the lowest cost employee assistance programme, and yeah, you've got an EAP you go see the EAP. The what now the employee assistance programme, employer funded counselling, doing great culture surveys and just not doing anything with the data weaponizing resilience. What does that mean? So we get asked very frequently to run On workshops in workplaces where people are being asked or required to overplay their resilience, and to paper over cracks in resourcing, and poor operational processes with their own well being, and particularly in caring professions, it's almost like the organisation knows people will go above and beyond and put every last shred of their energy and wellbeing into supporting their patients or consumers or clients at the expense of their well being. And I call that weaponizing. Resilience.

Ron Tomlian:

other professions that you see that are particularly prone to this where people are leveraging from the goodwill, are they people in the health profession, or

Samantha Young:

I think it's those those professions where there's an underlying really strong shared mission. Okay, yeah. So I would say yes to helping caring service professions. But if we look at sort of more corporate environments, what we're doing then is weaponizing people's fear of job security and career progression. So I'm going to exploit, let's say, as an example, a graduate, and really, it's a form of wage theft, you guys that I know they're working 15 hours a day, and I'm charging two clients eight hours a day for their time. That's another form of weaponizing resilience.

Brenton Gowland:

I hate to say it, but that kind of brings up not for profits, doesn't it?

Samantha Young:

I guess a lot of not for profits, there is that deep, underlying passion about the end consumer. And it's almost like you have to bleed, the organisation live breeze believed it. And we shouldn't be asking that of people. There are some things people shouldn't have to be resilient about, as an example, bullying and harassment in the workplace, tolerating inappropriate workplace behaviours, and that comes back to culture.

Brenton Gowland:

So it's almost like you use people's goodwill against them.

Samantha Young:

And I'm not saying that's necessarily conscious Brenton, it becomes, if you think of culture, culture is the underlying almost implicit unspoken beliefs in an organisation. It's just the way we do business.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, it's very interesting because it is a juxtaposition because I'm, like, I've sat on a board of a volunteer organisation, and that CEO and others take less wages than you would in the industry, because they realise they're part of something that doesn't have that kind of budget. And they're passionate about the purpose of that business. But I know for a fact that the CEO we had could have been somewhere else as a CEO and got paid one or 200 grands more.

Samantha Young:

There's a lot of guilt. There's a lot of guilt, that

Brenton Gowland:

guilt, it was, like you said it was a genuine passion where we were but yeah, it's a really fine line between exploiting that and and using it.

Samantha Young:

And I think the other really common thing we're seeing at the moment is what I want to call urgency culture. Oh, yeah. So it's crisis culture, this available on demand all the time. And it's actually false urgency. So this chronic acute reactivity where everyone's running around, everything is urgent, and there's this perpetual state of overwhelm. And I'm gonna use the term perma stress, you can actually feel it when you walk into the organisation. So we'll have that manic feeling. So every change is the most important. You know that expression, the management speak at the moment, boil the ocean, so there's a tendency to do that is desperate energy, mindless busyness. So some of the symptoms I want you to think about your team uses phrases like smashed out of control, frantic crazy, just to describe business as usual tempo, and there's almost bonus points, if it's used competitively. It's almost this heroic feel to it. Diaries are filled with back to back meetings. And people are almost proud of that. There's this organic spawning of projects without any alignment to overall strategic priorities. Without that discipline, stress levels run high. So you're going to see outbursts of frustration and anger, rising health concerns. Passive aggressive behaviour becomes common.

Brenton Gowland:

You know, you're describing government.

Samantha Young:

There's a pervasive belief, the team's always being pushed to the limit all the time, and most days are bad days. And that results obviously in poor decisions, emotional decisions. And this crisis mentality rewards individual heroics, which is really risky. And there's an expectation of instant response to everything, to emails to phone calls. always on, always on. So this manifests this urgency manifests as this relentless mode multitasking, and time is seen as the measure of commitment rather than the value produced. Yeah, so we're seeing a lot of this becoming the norm.

Brenton Gowland:

So look, and being serious, I've worked with government a lot that tends to be a norm in certain government departments under ministers because they're always frantic. But what are the industries is that really is

Samantha Young:

one of them, all of them, all of them? All of them. Now, I'm all for operational tempo. I've absolutely let's go right. It's got to be calm, calm and executed in a way that's aligned to strategic imperative generally

Brenton Gowland:

calm means you've got a plan in place, right people without a plan, run frantic or People with a plan can change at the drop of a dime. And sometimes that comes back to the leader. We all know that a certain type of leader doesn't follow a plan. They just get ideas and then the business changes what they're doing. But if it's all businesses, then there's got to be something in the zeitgeist in the atmosphere in the in the world that's driving this and if it is, what is it?

Samantha Young:

We're glorifying busyness and correlating it as being productive?

Brenton Gowland:

Where has this come from? In your opinion? Well, it's

Samantha Young:

always on the grind, the hustle. It's really glamorising, that I think and saying that as a definition of success.

Ron Tomlian:

And his technology become an enabler of that. Well, it's the

Samantha Young:

tail wagging the dog. Absolutely. So the little dopamine hit we get whenever notifications go off on our phone. Yeah, the instant expectation of a response 24/7 and information overload we are just literally overwhelmed by too much information.

Brenton Gowland:

So it is what's being modelled like in the media, certain behaviours get modelled and weak, see them outworked in,

Samantha Young:

you should have a second gig now. Yeah, enough just to have one job, you should have a side hustle.

Brenton Gowland:

When we were talking about the fact that this is the first time like before we did the podcast, you were saying it's the first time in history, that people who are working in full time careers are homeless.

Samantha Young:

It's horrifying. And you know, there's some of the metrics are saying we're worse off than in the Great Depression, in terms of affordability. So some people actually do need a second job, which is horrifying, or having

Brenton Gowland:

multiple people living with them. Yeah,

Samantha Young:

as we were saying earlier. And I think there's a mindset, especially with founders and entrepreneurs, and CEOs, that we expect employees to share our passion and commitment. And why should they?

Ron Tomlian:

I have this problem a lot in discussions with people who are CEOs, and usually business owners, where the expectation is that what I'm passionate about this, but of course, you will get the rewards. And the rewards for the individuals. Yes, maybe I could be proud of that. But at the end of the day, I'm not going to share in the same rewards. But by the same token, I'm not sharing your risk either. And that's why there is a separation. But I think the expectation that I'm passionate about this as an owner, you should be to well, yes, if the rewards there, but it often isn't.

Samantha Young:

And I think there's this idea that we're a family. Oh, in a business. Yeah. You have you have you seen that a bit?

Brenton Gowland:

Well, I've experienced it and lived it because we in the company that I was running, we felt a bit like that, because it was only 12 to eight of us at any one time. So it's a palatable size to feel like a family.

Samantha Young:

So obviously, as a psychologist, I've got a bit of a twisted lens on this. So most families are dysfunctional. That's true. And no, this is not a family, people should not be expected to treat their employment as a family.

Ron Tomlian:

But you know, what's interesting is when it is a family, and I'm talking about family businesses, the complexity a level of complexity, having that layer, extra layer of involvement, and relationship just makes family businesses that much more difficult in some cases, because there's this expectation that you're not only doing this for you are doing this for the business, you're also doing it for the family, and who's in and who's out of that family can be problematic.

Brenton Gowland:

I would imagine that that would cause real stress for the staff because they then see family members behaving like family, ie, managers having fights in meetings, like they would at home. I've seen that just recently. And then how do the staff deal with that they have to change the way they interact with people because oh, that's just them, they're gonna fight in front of us in a meeting,

Samantha Young:

nepotism is always problematic culturally nepotism? Well, it's essentially when people are being promoted or in positions out of relationship with the leadership, my brother, county sister, whoever.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so look, you've kind of defined the problem in the environment that we're playing with. So if we start getting to how do we start to overcome this, maybe we could start by talking about how we could initiate or how leaders could initiate conversations about mental health in the workplace, but particularly in the context of maybe helping people avoid burnout or recover from it. Because it sounds like there's a lot of burnout actually going on at the moment in workplaces.

Samantha Young:

Firstly, I think open your mind and build your understanding of mental health and mental illness and well being and then get out into the frontline and say what's actually going on. There's a bit of an ivory tower that can occur especially in larger organisations where senior leadership are isolated physically and psychologically from the frontline workforce. So just turn up and then talk to people. So open communication, or create psychological safety and scaffold people with support. So what we're saying is, how do we empower our people to look after their well being? well being is not something I can give them like in a box with a shiny ribbon. This is a mutual obligation. And but how do I make it easy, I guess the people to look after themselves deal with inappropriate behaviours quickly and appropriately. I mean, that just is the huge one. So email staff obviously don't tolerate bad behaviour in the workplace. Yeah, there's

Ron Tomlian:

an old saying that I've come across so many times what you walk past, you can done,

Samantha Young:

the standard you will pass is the standard you accept. So provide training to your managers know the warning signs that you're looking for. Another one we really think is promote and recruit for the whole person, not just their technical ability.

Brenton Gowland:

Can you explain that a little bit further.

Samantha Young:

So I want you to think about the metrics and the qualities that we recruit and promote on and they tend to be someone that's really good at the job? Yeah, yep. But how do they behave at work? What's their emotional intelligence? When you say the job? You're talking about the technical job? Yes, yeah. So they might be excellent. I don't know. Let's pick accounting, fantastic accountants or tax auditors. But are they great people?

Brenton Gowland:

I got an example for you on that. So when I was a young man, in my 20s, I was working at this advertising agency a few years ago, just a little while. So I'm working in his agency, and we got this guy in there. And he was one of the best designers I've ever come across. And he was a miserable, horrible person to people around him, it's probably good outside of work. But because there's this certain thing with creatives, where if you think you're really good, that can be a tendency for them to think they're better than others. And so he put everyone else down. And I was really impressed with my bosses at the time, because he was winning us new clients at a huge rate, but they still got rid of him. And the whole place, the atmosphere changed when he was gone.

Samantha Young:

Yeah, cuz look, we got to look at what we reward. What else have I got for you? Good job design, workload management. So making sure people have achievable workloads, inclusion and diversity concerns, and then making sure people have agency and control over their work. And I think you look at the Navy SEALs, right? How they select people into one of the most elite programmes on the planet. The guys that get in it is all guys. So I'm not being sexist on this, the guys that get through are not the ones you'd expect. So well, they're really big, strong, tough, out there. Amazingly fit, you know, do all the great things tend not to make the cut, because they'd actually rather take someone with average physical abilities, but fantastic attitude, because you can teach the other stuff. Yeah, but attitude is really hard to teach.

Ron Tomlian:

I was actually listening to Simon Sinek talk about that recently. And he said, the ones that they choose, are the ones who are willing to support the guy next to them. Because in the heat of battle, it's not whether you can do something, it's whether you're willing to support the person next to you who can also do something. Yeah, exactly.

Samantha Young:

So I think there's some other myths that burnout is not fixed with better systems alone. Burnout does not mean you don't like your business, or you need to quit or change your business. And you don't burn out because you're weak or can't hack it. So we got to culturally shift those myths. Yeah. So in actual fact, self care, preventative self care, reaching out for support, they signs of strength.

Ron Tomlian:

And funnily enough, they're not signs that people usually associate with strengthened leaders. But vulnerability and willingness to ask for help, and willingness to share problems are all signs to my way of thinking of great leaders.

Samantha Young:

I mean, obviously, we're not talking Oprah Winfrey, oversharing vulnerability, we're talking about strategic vulnerability, but how powerful to communicate to your team, that you're human, because it gives them permission. It's a bit

Brenton Gowland:

of a change mindset, from what we were talking about. In the beginning, we mentioned the fact that some CEOs, it might be a generational thinking is the reason that they don't value or seem to prioritise mental health in the workplace. So that whole being able to retrain even CEOs. And I think we all have a responsibility to lifelong learning, right? So how do those people win those positions? How do we actually help them realise that these are things that make them look stronger?

Samantha Young:

I've come up with a little theory, it's called the four buckets theory. And imagine the way you use your time and energy, have a look at your diary over a month. And I want you to think about four buckets. So you've got actually doing the job hands on delivery of the job. Number one, number two is everything to do with your people. Everything recruitment, coaching, just informal chats, everything. Three is big picture strategic thinking and then four is personal and professional development. So I want you to then think about ideally in the land of unicorns and rainbows, how would you allocate that time? And most of us are going to say, well, most of it should be in people. Yeah, okay. Yeah, managing the people doing the job. Yes. Then in big picture strategy, yeah, yeah, the least should be in the actual hands on delivery technical doing the job Correct. I want you to honestly, then look at your diary. And I guarantee you, it'll be the other way around. So you have to then aggressively re architect how you're investing your time to align with what you're saying you should be doing.

Brenton Gowland:

I guess that's a mindset thing as well, because looking after the people means if you're a leader or a CEO, or running a business, that means you're actually working on getting the job done. Yeah. And you're keeping the tools in tune that are doing it, that doesn't feel

Samantha Young:

as good sometimes. So it's much easier if I just do it myself. The hardest job is managing people it is. So also if you're not investing that time in your people, what is that telling them about your priorities, because your time and money, follow your priorities? And I will argue that with anyone, yeah, so if you're spending your time doing, rather than leading, what's the telling your people,

Ron Tomlian:

and I'd like to make that distinction that you just made, when you say managing people, I don't think you can manage people, you have to lead them. And so the management side of the job in leading or being a manager, being someone who runs an Organisation or runs a section of it, that's the technical stuff, the spreadsheets and the rosters. And people love doing that sort of thing. Because it's, I can see the results. The hard part is talking to people, relating to people listening, most important listening to people. And that's hard draining work is you would know for being a psychologist,

Samantha Young:

and you don't see an immediate return on that time, so I can feel less productive.

Brenton Gowland:

Wow, interesting. So last episode, we mentioned a toolkit. So could you talk potentially, about how we could if we're leaders create or establish a toolkit or a set of strategies that individuals in our organisations can use to combat burnout and support their mental health at work?

Samantha Young:

I think diagnostic so I'm a big one for analysis, get the data. So what are the primary causes of stress and burnout in your workplace, they're going to be unique to your workplace and your industry. So define the problem, then targeted action plan. So don't scattergun it, pick the top three things to address operational and structural factors that are causing burnout and stress. Yeah, then provide resources to people. And I want to be a little bit wary of the trend we're seeing at the moment to go to digital, self help sort of stuff. It's a huge chucking an app at someone is not going to fix their well being. Yeah, it's nice piece in the jigsaw puzzle. But it's only one piece can be a good supporting piece to it can but that's all it is. It's not the panacea, allow people to switch off, allow them to switch off. So instant response expectations that we talked about, give people the opportunity to leave work at work physically and psychologically. And I want you to focus rather than on time management, energy management, because we can replenish energy, we can't replenish time. Yeah, so the time spent on something really isn't relevant. It's the value that's been created. So let's get rid of this idea of face time. And instead focus on deliverables and value, holistic and systematic approach that includes prevention, because we'd always rather prevent a problem than trying to fix it, once someone's mental health is damaged, it's much harder to fix than to prevent place HR at the centre of your business, not at the fringe. So HR are not a function that people run to in crisis, okay, so it's about actually placing them at the centre of the business. Even having a people and culture department always concerns me in the sense that it should be everyone's business, not just hrs. And what line managers can tend to do is then flick all the hard stuff to HR,

Brenton Gowland:

because I think that's out of the way, because I know that thinking permeates leaders, because if I've got someone taking care of remember, even in our business, we had a general manager or someone who that person is responsible for taking care of everyone they shield me from them, is the thinking that kind of permeates.

Samantha Young:

And then it becomes not my problem to actually I've had managers say to me, Well, where does it say in my job description that I need to talk to people? And I'm sorry, why? And they're like, What does it say there? Well, that's not my job hrs job, they can sort out that the hard stuff, and that's I know that that is profoundly your job.

Ron Tomlian:

And that ignorance, that lack of understanding is part of the problem that has to be grappled with by senior management and organisations, for their frontline leaders. Because if they're not talking to their people, that is a cause of stress in itself. You know, and it's that interpersonal communication. Do you talked before about the idea of how much time do you spend on the four buckets? Well, if you look at the four buckets that are available to you in form of communication, most people's then the time and energy on the formal communication that the newsletters the emails, it's the informal that people are looking towards your behaviours, how you model are you talk to them? And people don't spend enough time thinking about that

Brenton Gowland:

your attitude? Do you smile? Are you approachable? All those things they make people feel like either they're valued in their job or at risk, frankly.

Ron Tomlian:

Okay, so. So you talked before about measurement. I love that because being you know, can take the boy out of engineering, but he can take the engineer out of the boy, what measures can an organisation implement to create a supportive environment? What What can it actually measure to help with that?

Samantha Young:

So we've got qualitative and quantitative I suppose. So in terms of a dashboard, turnover, absenteeism, productivity metrics that are specific to your organisation WorkCover claims, injury reports and near misses, so not just actual injury reports, but the Near Miss concept EAP utilisation so how much your workforce is actually using your employee assistance programme. And it actually is higher, the better not lower, the better. We want to increase the utilisation because we actually want people to reach out for support, not when they're in crisis. But well before then, almost like a check in just like you go to your GP for a bit of a your annual we're talking about annual checkups, why can't we just check in on people's well being to see how I'm going like shooting up a car?

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, yeah, it's a good analogy, because you'd never leave the maintenance of a vehicle or any asset for over a year. But we do it to ourselves, and we do it where people? Yep. And

Samantha Young:

then I think seeking feedback from our people. So that's that survey concept, qualitative and quantitative. So formal and informal measures, and then have an holistic wellbeing strategy. So that includes how work is managed job clarity, are reasonable stress levels present in your organisation, and do that with consultation with your people ask them what do they need?

Brenton Gowland:

You know, I'd love to, I'd love to delve into each of those. We don't have time, really. But to me, the one that got me, obviously was turnover, right, like, sales. So why is that a good measure of mental health? Well, it

Samantha Young:

depends on the industry. But in general, if your workplace is becoming toxic, to work in good people will leave. And it costs a huge amount to replace them, not just the actual hiring of them. But the loss of knowledge, corporate knowledge. Yep. I

Brenton Gowland:

probably was talking about a different turnover, the actual sales of the business, the dollar figure. That's okay. Both are important. But the reason I'm asking is because I think that's something that traditional CEOs and leaders would really well, that would get me paying attention

Samantha Young:

what I actually think that turnover could be misleading Brinton, because you could have a CEO that's flogging their workforce to increase turnover. So I don't know if turnover and same goes for being really careful to differentiate between turnover and profit. So if I'm starting to go shaky as a business, what I will tend to do is cut costs. And we know that doesn't work. All that does is shift cost to another area of the business. So I think there can be some misleading, I genuinely think focusing on profit is a mistake, because it's an it's a historical measure of previous activity. Instead, what are the key drivers of profit in your business? So yeah, I meant turnover of people leaving rather than revenue,

Ron Tomlian:

staff turnover. And, you know, you mentioned the idea that putting HR at the centre of an organisation and I can already hear people saying, well, I can't put everybody at the centre of my organisation, I've been told to put the customer at the centre of my organisation. So how can I put HR at the centre of my organisation as well, and I think there is a way of looking at it. When you look at your employees as the internal customer.

Samantha Young:

I had a stand stand up argument some years ago with a CEO of a large entity and wasn't asked back strangely, but they were very much of the view that the customer must be at the centre, and the customer comes first always. And I said, No, your staff wellbeing comes first. Because you feel workforce isn't? Well, they can't look after your customer. Let's take education, as an example to student well being come before staff wellbeing, no. Because if your staff aren't, well, then they can't look after the students

Ron Tomlian:

in this. This is the whole concept of the service profit chain, that Hesketh came up with when at Harvard years ago, that if you look after you hire the right people, you look after them, give them the right resources, they'll be happy.

Brenton Gowland:

And let's translate a little bit further as well. I've been in companies where we've sacked clients to protect our staff because of the way those clients were training our staff. So that to me is putting our staff first and also taking care of the client because We can't take good care of you if we resent you.

Samantha Young:

And my dad ran a very successful small business, and he has some great sayings. And one of them was keep your competitors busy with the bad clients.

Brenton Gowland:

I like that. Yeah,

Samantha Young:

he's right. Absolutely the the actual cost to your business of trying to deal with a difficult client organisation, it's going to cost you more in the long term.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, so that's interesting. So I do believe in having the customer at the centre of your organisation, but that doesn't mean putting them first. It's an interesting concept, when you raise that having your staff at the centre of your organisation, the concept in my head is how do you have them both at the centre of the organisation? I think,

Ron Tomlian:

as I said before, if you want your customer to be at the centre of the organisation, you have to think about who is serving that person, or that customer. And the mechanism most of us use to serve their customer is through people. And if you're not, therefore, looking after choosing supporting those people appropriately, they can't look after the customer. Yeah, so it's may be counterintuitive, but it is so true, that you have to look after the well being of your staff and your employees and the people who serve customers, if you want to actually put the customer at the centre of your organisation. So it's not in Congress. It's just maybe not counterintuitive. Agreed.

Brenton Gowland:

Yep. So some great measures there. And if we can just then maybe look at what would be some practical advice on them promoting work life balance and reducing stress among employees. So we've got the measures in place to check all this, how do we then improve what the measures are telling us?

Samantha Young:

Let me think here are some top tips. So create an allow whitespace. So back in the day, when I used to be a management consultant, we'd do these whitespace diagrams and your chart, um, process. And the whitespace was where value wasn't being added in the process. But I actually want us to look at whitespace differently. Rather, it's time brain time to rest and play in an unscheduled way. We all we all need it, we all really need it. So unplanned, spontaneous and not filled with more work, which is hard.

Brenton Gowland:

That's really interesting, because my predominant skill set is creative, right. So when I'm doing even a marketing plan for someone or trying to think of a strategy, I will start the work and then I'll spend a few days not doing anything on it, but it just permeates in my brain. When I'm in the shower, when I'm going for a walk. It'll just be there. And then when I come back to it, I've already almost done the thinking like it's just permeated through use of whitespace.

Samantha Young:

He can't shedule creativity. Yeah, yeah. Boundaries, let's talk about boundaries. So boundaries exists to help you protect your resources, resources, or Time, money energy. And without them, you'll be scattered and spread thin. So I think there's four types of boundaries I want you to consider the first is around your energy. So removing drains on your energy and saying no to stuff. So every time you say no to something, it's giving yourself permission to say yes to something else. Secondly is between your obviously life and work, which is the topic of this series, when you're not answering emails and phone calls are mentally consumed by the work. Third is around your work time. So staying in your lane and sticking to actually what's going to deliver value, and then boundaries around big picture planning. So that comes back to our whitespace. But making time to work on the business, not just in it. And I know that's such a cliche, but it is for a reason. His definition of insanity,

Brenton Gowland:

doing the same thing.

Ron Tomlian:

It's interesting you say that, because I do remember someone who was in my tech group, and we talked about the fact that he needed to do a strategic plan. And so I said, Look, you're probably if you're going to do it yourself, which you can do, you want to put the framework together and you want to put those sort of bones on it before involved anyone else. I said, you're gonna need a day, you're gonna need a day. So I said, Leave it with me. Next time we got together. I said, so how's it gone? Putting that day aside? He said, Yep, I've taken care of it. Look at my diary. I've got half an hour here between meetings. I've got 15 minutes here. I've got 20 minutes there. And we went through a month of his diary, and it all added up to a day. And he thought that was putting a day aside. And I said, No, you need to understand. You've got to have a buffer between your busyness and the reflective capabilities that you need to be able to put this thing together. He didn't get it

Brenton Gowland:

in interest. That's the difference between the logical and the creative brain because some point they got to marry because different people like what was his background skill set

Ron Tomlian:

fire. He was an engineer. I'm sorry, go. Yeah. And look. And the problem is, I think for a lot of people is that we glorify the logical thinking and we glorify this process. I approach but at the end of the day, it's not just adding the numbers together and getting the whole, it's understand the process in itself has to have reflection in it. And

Brenton Gowland:

I think that's also a really interesting shift. I think we've got to encourage the creativity and people even if they are an engineer, I'm not saying engineers aren't creative, because they are. But they're creative in a very logical fashion. And I think sometimes, yeah, I don't know, it's

Ron Tomlian:

training. And I love engineers are trained to be problem solvers. Some Saturday training can be our own worst enemy. Because we have to then untrain to learn new skills.

Samantha Young:

And if we think of, you know, AI, and the change we've seen this year, with chat GPT, we've seen more change this year than we have in 30 years in terms of technology. Humans have to do what machines can't, and we have to optimise for uncertainty. And that's going to require innovation and creativity. And we can't schedule that in those little micro slots. Our brains are not designed to multitask. So you hear people go, Oh, yeah, no, I'm great at multitasking. No, with none of us are. None of us are.

Brenton Gowland:

I love that, optimise for uncertainty.

Samantha Young:

What's the only way we're going to create meaningful work for people that AI is going to take jobs? And we have to then replace those jobs take and

Brenton Gowland:

change jobs?

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, I think that that's the thing that a lot of people are talking about, it's going to take a job, just in the same way as spreadsheets took from the bookkeepers who were adding up numbers in the past, it's going to change the skill sets that are required, there's still going to be people needed to do that work. It's just gonna be very different type of work. And it's probably got to be more creative. What do you think

Samantha Young:

about how our organisations are structured, we've all got an org chart yet, they have not changed since 1810. That, you know, railway company in the USA, we've got, you know, the CEO at the top, and then the boxes, and then the boxes under that. And that is optimising for command and control, which is about certainty. And we no longer live in that era, we live in an age of uncertainty. So to optimise for that it's going to require a really different skill set and a really different leadership focus.

Brenton Gowland:

I've seen a few different sets of you know, there's the flat structure, and then there's the bottom up structure, because you've got it put the the front face towards your clients at the top. So there is different

Samantha Young:

thinking in reality, I think most managers think that they should have the answers.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes, yeah, really good managers. And this is the point of even what we're doing with this podcast. We want the people who are listening to challenge themselves, right? Because I was having this conversation with a caregiver who was the other day about the fact that really good people look for the answer in their employees, they, they employ someone to do a job not so that I have to do that job for them. Because I, I might have a small part of that skill set, and I could do that work. But this person will do it so much better that that little bit of understanding of how to do that job helps me to be able to communicate with them, that really good people look to leverage the skills of others.

Samantha Young:

I saw a great Harvard Business Review stat the other day that's held for the last two decades, then most people trust a stranger more than their manager.

Brenton Gowland:

Interesting. Why?

Ron Tomlian:

Wow. That's

Brenton Gowland:

why is that familiarity breeds contempt? Or managers?

Samantha Young:

Yeah. The last? Well,

Ron Tomlian:

you know, it's an interesting thing. Because, again, I don't want to get pedantic about words. But management is about things in leadership is about people. And I think all of us get trained in the management of things in organising, controlling. And we think, well, that's how you, you do the same with people. And I'd organise my desk, so I can organise people. And it doesn't work that way. And we don't get trained enough in the skills and the mindset of how do I influence people? How do I inspire people, and the number of people who I come across who are in positions of authority, who have never had any exposure to formal training in the role as a leader, it just astounds me.

Samantha Young:

So coming back to well being and what leaders can do a couple of questions to sit with and you know, for self reflection, why should people follow you? Why you and why did you put your hand up to do this and be really honest about it, what your motivation is, what is your leadership why, and if you're answering things like looks pretty good on my business card, or it was more money, or people are going to be in pregame and this is where you got to be painfully honest in the Hall of Mirrors, right? That's not gonna get you through because we know leadership is fundamentally an act of service. So I don't think too many people have thought about why should people follow them

Brenton Gowland:

and I look for the little comments that people make. So when you spend a lot of time with CEOs, it's the very, it's the small throwaway lines that are tells, you know, oh, that was me, this is about me. And I always think when I hear that, how can I help this person see that it's about us in them rather than just me?

Samantha Young:

Well, the a beautiful study was done by an Australian forensic psychologist. And I don't know how he got this through ethics. But he did. And he was purporting to study leadership practices in the C suite in Australia. And he slipped in a couple of personality measures. And he found the same presence of psychopathic features in senior executive as he did in jails. Interesting. So if we look at again, what are we rewarding? It comes back to the things that we promote, and value.

Brenton Gowland:

So I think, my interpretation of that question that you left with us as a while ago, for the people who are listening, we want to encourage people to be business builders, people who work on themselves in order to grow better businesses. But the question I'm hearing is, what type of leader do you want to be? And why and why. And I think that's so important. And I think this, the mental health of our staff is so wrapped up in that, and we have to start wrapping up because we've almost come to time. So we've got a couple of last questions for you. But think about that question we just spoke about, and we'll maybe address that in future episodes. But let's just quickly talk about what resources and support systems that we can put in place as organisations to assist our employees in their journey of recovering from burnout and maintaining their mental health.

Samantha Young:

Yeah, I think we've we've touched on things like learning and development opportunities, and we've seen them cut back a lot, you know, COVID, obviously, they stopped. And I don't think they're quite recovered, because again, they're seen as a cost rather than an investment. And this idea of a holistic systematic approach, the same thing you'd take to safety, I want you to think about taking that to employee well being and consultation, ask your staff literally just ask them, What do you need, and they'll tell you,

Ron Tomlian:

Mm hmm. So as always, with the business builders, we'd like to leave our listeners with some practical things that they can do. So top three pieces of advice for business builders, who aiming to cultivate a culture of well being in their workplace.

Samantha Young:

The first one is acknowledge that sometimes you need to slow down before you can speed up. So you're gonna go from burnout, prone to burnout resistance, that's going to require a shift in mindset. And self care is a strategic imperative, rather than a sign of weakness, number one. Number two, I want you to think about well being as more than just your mental health. So you know, you have this idea and nutrition that you have the pleasure of food, and it's meant to have your protein and your carbs and your veggies. And I want you to think about your well being in a similar way. So it's made up of all sorts of components. We've got sleep, which I think something you guys are going to touch on down the track. Exercise, I can't stress strongly enough, what a great wellbeing tool exercises, fun play, time for that downtime that's just unscheduled without a purpose, disconnect time off devices and technology, connection time. So relational connection, building important relationships, and then focus time. So I know that kind of feels a bit like a stressful to do list now, right? But I want you to think about your platter as the healthy mind and where your nutritionally deprived as a result. And then lastly, I want you to do a bit of a diagnostic on your culture in your organisation and look for some of the symptoms that your well being is actually being threatened. So bad behaviour is not confronted compensation or promotions based on results, not results in behaviour. As we said earlier, people explode, communication is poor, or one way as in top down, excessive email use, lack of clarity and values and expected behaviours are not defined and reinforced. And that's up to you to do as the leader. My main ones,

Brenton Gowland:

I want to ask a couple of quick questions. What do you mean by excessive email us?

Samantha Young:

People on average are getting 60 to 100 new emails a day. So even if you just open that email, that is already three hours out of your day, every day, new emails. I literally I think we're all just dying under the weight of excessive email traffic. Yeah, gotcha.

Ron Tomlian:

And I think it abrogates responsibility to I informed you of that. I know it's one of 1000 emails received day but I did tell you about oh, and I

Samantha Young:

said your manager.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. Why don't you know about that, as I've already we've had that conversation. Yeah,

Ron Tomlian:

yeah, it is. It's a way of getting out of jail, because I did tell you about it. It's not an effective form of communication and I I often talked about the fact that go and speak to a person, at the very least give them a call, because the amount of information that comes both ways with some type of interaction is so much better than what you think you are saying in an event.

Samantha Young:

And I think we just need to bring heart back into this. But emotions and leadership have been disconnected or decoupled. And this rational logic hardness takes over. And I actually think we need to bring the human back

Brenton Gowland:

who spoke about that right at the beginning about CEOs and leaders becoming harder.

Ron Tomlian:

And that's something AI can't do. Thank God for that.

Brenton Gowland:

Look, that was fantastic. Sam, thank you for that. And I think our listeners will thank you as well. And I think that's all we got time for today. But there's a few few beautiful thoughts in amongst that, that I think we should pick up at another time with Sam Sam's the only person we've had that twice.

Ron Tomlian:

I'm looking forward to third time,

Brenton Gowland:

I think so. Listen, if you aren't listening, let us know what you think. If you're not part of our LinkedIn group yet, then get on LinkedIn and look up the business builders podcast. And we've got a LinkedIn group. We've been getting some people coming through and and joining that group, I think we're about 80 or 90 people at the moment. So that's not bad. It's not bad. Can I

Samantha Young:

just add Brenton that if you are struggling, then please reach out the three resources like lifeline. Yes. Beyond Blue, your GP or friends and family. But you're not alone.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. 100%. And we spoke last time that will we haven't put those resources in the LinkedIn group yet. But let's do that this week. We'll put that with some announcements about the podcast and so forth, black said, if you want to reach out as well and give us any feedback, do that through the LinkedIn group. And we'd love to hear what your thoughts are. But for this week, it's a goodbye from me

Ron Tomlian:

And goodbye from me.

Samantha Young:

Take care stay well.