Business Builders Podcast

When Your Passion Turns To Poison: Addressing Burnout with Samantha Young

• Brenton Gowland & Ron Tomlian • Season 3 • Episode 52

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Welcome, Business Builders! This is the second episode of our Life-Work Balance series. Today, we're shedding light on a subject that's often experienced yet rarely discussed: Burnout.

You've probably heard the phrase "burning the candle at both ends." It perfectly depicts what many of us feel compelled to do in the pursuit of success. We push ourselves to the limit, convinced that more hours, more effort, and less rest will yield superior results. But what transpires when the candle burns out, and the very endeavour we were once passionate about begins to feel like a poison to us?

Burnout isn't merely about feeling tired; it's a state of chronic physical and mental exhaustion that can gravely impact your health, relationships, and business success. Ignoring it won't make it vanish; denial can lead to even more severe consequences.

In this episode, we're joined by clinical psychologist and CEO Samantha Young, who brings a wealth of knowledge on navigating the delicate balance between passion and overload.

Key Topics:

  • Defining Burnout: We kick off with an overview of burnout - a gradual, draining state marked by exhaustion, detachment from work, and a decline in professional efficacy. If left unchecked, it can spiral into serious health disorders.
  • Burnout's Impact: We delve into the ripple effects of burnout on productivity, decision-making, focus, and general well-being, including physical symptoms like chest pain, headaches, and cognitive issues such as forgetfulness.
  • Burnout Amid COVID-19: The pandemic has intensified burnout, with remote work blurring the lines between professional and personal life. We discuss how excessive work hours and inadequate time off contribute to this syndrome.
  • Warning Signs: We outline the red flags of burnout, including productivity dips, heightened irritability, frequent sick days, and missed targets.
  • Workplace Role in Burnout: We underscore the crucial role leaders play in preventing burnout, emphasizing the need for psychological safety in the workplace and the legal responsibilities of business directors, owners, and CEOs.
  • Personal Journey: Samantha opens up about her own battle with burnout, shining a light on the relief that selling a business can bring to overwhelmed entrepreneurs.
  • Preventing Burnout: We explore ways to prevent burnout, from leaders setting a good example in self-care practices to delegating tasks, shifting mindsets, and creating personalized self-care toolkits.
  • Support Resources: We share valuable resources for mental health support, including
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Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Business Builders Podcast. Until next time, KEEP ON BUILDING !!

Brenton Gowland:

Hey there Business Builders. It's a strange twist of fate. But sometimes the very thing we love, the business we've created or the career we've built can become the thing we hate the most. Well buckle up, because today we're talking with clinical psychologist Samantha young, about what to do when our passion becomes our poison. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts, I am Brenton Gowland.

Ron Tomlian:

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

And today, Ron, we've got a really interesting topic. So obviously, Last episode, we started a new series. And that series is called life work balance

Ron Tomlian:

I like that.

Brenton Gowland:

So do I. And we've had some really interesting responses to that, it seems we've come on to a topic at just the right time.

Ron Tomlian:

Hit a nerve.

Brenton Gowland:

Hit a nerve, or maybe something that's just floating around in the back of people's minds. Because I know that when people have listened to the podcast and got back to us, they've said that we really need to hear something like this at the moment. It's really topical. I know that I had some people who've never listened to the podcast before say to me, I really want to listen to this series. And I'm like, Oh, interesting. Why is that? And literally, it's because well, Life-Work Balance is on their minds.

Ron Tomlian:

It's topical, because of what's happened with COVID is topical because of the economic situation, not just here, but overseas. And the best part about today's podcast is that you just don't have to listen to Brenton and I droning on about it, we've got a guest we have.

Brenton Gowland:

And we'll introduce that guest in just a moment. So look. Anyway, we were carrying on this series Life-Work Balance. And today, we're going to be talking about something with our guests who will introduce in a moment, she's a renowned psychologist and a CEO. So we look forward to introducing her that we want to talk about when your passion becomes poison. Because sometimes you have to really think about the problem before you can come up with a solution. But just think about it Business Builders who listen to this podcast people who we assume if you're listening, that you really want to work on yourself to build your skills, so that you can build great businesses, businesses that make a difference in the economies, that they're in businesses that more importantly, make a difference to our own lives. But sometimes that thing that we've created, becomes the ball and chain around our ankle, which causes us a lot of grief and distress. And it's really sad when that happens. Because when passion turns to poison people's lives can be turned upside down.

Ron Tomlian:

And I think it's good that we start with some of the consequences of getting this lifework balance thing wrong. Yeah. And stress and burnout are definitely some of the downsides of not considering or not putting into place at the forefront of your thinking this concept of Life-Work Balance.

Brenton Gowland:

Absolutely. And so we'll get our guest to talk about that in just a second. Before we do. Let me introduce to you today, Samantha Young. So look, we're thrilled to have Samantha with us today. She is not just a scholar, but she's a practitioner, serving as the CEO of Human Psychology. It's one of Adelaide's largest psychological service providers. And Samantha's journey is really fascinating. And it's also inspiring. Her career spans from consulting at Boston Consulting Group, to managing Sales and Marketing for the Body Shop. What a huge divide and difference of skill that is, she has also been a strategist for my grace brothers. So lots of experience Sam brings to us today. This blend of commercial and management experience paired with her psychological expertise provides Sam with a unique perspective. To her practice. Sam also carries with her an impressive academic portfolio, including a master's degree in clinical psychology and an MBA from Melbourne University. But what truly sets them apart is her commitment to human potential, a passion that fuels her work every day. And that human psychology, Samantha and a team of dedicated to helping others embrace change, embrace self awareness, build stronger relationships and develop resilience. So it's not just about overcoming challenges, but it's thriving amongst them. So with that, I would like to introduce to everyone, Sam, it's great to have you here.

Samantha Young:

Thank you so much for having me on and Brenton and run by everyone.

Brenton Gowland:

Absolutely. Our pleasure to have you with us, Sam. And that's a pretty impressive portfolio of work experience you've got there. Do you want to talk to us a little bit about yourself before we get started? In your own words,

Samantha Young:

I think I almost feel uncomfortable talking about myself. When I talk about human psychology and the team. Please do because it's an amazing team of human beings. And we were established in 2007. So we've been around a while and we now have 25 clinicians working from three four locations around South Australia. And our mission is to help people to think feel and perform better. So we couldn't be more passionate about the topic of well being and Preventing burnout, because we see probably 10,000 people a day in different aspects in training and one on one counselling and we would much prefer to prevent mental health issues than try and treat them. So yeah, this is my my core passion. That is why I'm here is to talk about well being

Ron Tomlian:

anti Fantastic. Now, one of the downsides of getting that life work balance wrong, is burnout. And it's a serious consequence of having that balance out of balance. Can you explain to us and for our business builders exactly what burnout is and how it manifests itself?

Samantha Young:

Of course, I think people have some misconceptions about burnout. And I was reading just this morning, that we had the great resignation, great quitting all of these catchphrases in social media. But the one that hasn't been discussed is the great burnout. And reflecting on coming on here today, I think the reason is, we need to give ourselves permission to talk about this topic, but it's somehow taboo. And I don't know if that's an overhang from COVID, where we just toughed it out and got on with it. And now everything's fine, it's gone, we're fine. It's all fine. And if we just don't talk about it, then it might go away. So burnout is something that happens progressively over time, to our energy levels, and not only to our energy, but to our passion, to our sense of intrinsic motivation and meaning and purpose. So it's got three components, according to the World Health Organisation, so it's not a clinical disorder, right? It's a syndrome that can turn into a clinical disorder. So think of it as DEF CON to jump before you're about to go to DEF CON three. I love that analogy. So feelings of exhaustion. And it's that I'm just kind of done physically and emotionally nakid increasing mental distance from one's job. So you're starting to feel disconnected, cynical, negative, even resentful of your business in the team, and then reduced professional efficacy. So your productivity is declining, cognitive functions declining and just starting to get caught in this downward spiral. So that's been out.

Brenton Gowland:

Fair enough. So not a clinical, what do you call it a collimator syndrome?

Samantha Young:

It's a syndrome, not a clinical disorder. So if we went to the DSM five, yes. And looked it up, it's not in there yet. But it is recognised precursor by the World Health Organisation that you are starting to go down the wrong railway track.

Brenton Gowland:

Right. Okay. So precursor that's an interesting comment, right. So precursor to what

Samantha Young:

it could be business failure, it could be failure of your mental health, it could be failure of your physical health, it could be failure of your marriage, and close relationships. But like it's not a good train track. And I think people think burnout comes from just simply working too long, too hard for too long. And it's more than that. It also is around values, and you start losing your why. And it becomes very, very hard to get up in the morning.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, that's really interesting. I love that DEF CON deck country. Sorry, I've already taken us up to a further level. I love that example. Because I don't know about you, Ron, but I've experienced some of that before and progression.

Ron Tomlian:

I don't think there's any question that probably everyone that's listening has either experienced some or all of those symptoms to a greater or lesser extent. And to me, when that sort of thing starts happening. That's when I know it's time to get out of the office and get on a holiday, as we talked about before. But if you haven't experienced that, I should say if you haven't started to put in place some mechanisms for that. Yeah, I can see it. Going down a rabbit hole of problems. How far

Brenton Gowland:

have you got? Because DEFCON five. I imagine Samantha is where we fall off the cliff. Right? Yeah. So how far have you got on the DEF CON chart before?

Ron Tomlian:

A whole? I'd say up to four.

Brenton Gowland:

Yep, definitely got up to four, because we had the free chat earlier. And I said there was at one stage in the business that I was running that I had to leave the office. I remember walking down the local mall, I'm gonna be really transparent here. And I remember touching my neck and my heart was going. And I sat down in the middle of this crowded mall and just thought this is it. And I slowly got up and walked across to the hospital and told them what was going on. And they of course, immediately checked me out and said you're having a panic attack. And I remember thinking this was always going to be done toast. And I remember other times just having to leave the office and and think, oh, sit in a panic and just be away from people because you feel this overwhelming weight of all these decisions that you're making when you're basically backed into a corner. So I've definitely been to DEF CON for touching on five but thankfully somehow I've got back down to three and two and hopefully now I'm sitting sitting at a no I'm warning state, which is at DEF CON one near let's call it DEF CON. Yeah. So look, you've mentioned, obviously, what we've just been talking about. The burnout isn't simply about working too long or too hard. But it's, it's that progression. It's that ongoing stress. Could you elaborate on this and perhaps share some examples that highlight these aspects of the build up.

Samantha Young:

So let's think of it as the boiling frog experiment. So don't be trying this at home, please. But imagine you have two frogs, and you drop one in boiling water, it will obviously jump straight out, I'd be jumping out straightaway. If you put a live frog in blood temperature water and slowly turn up the heat, it will go to sleep and die because it doesn't notice the gradual change in its environment. So let's take your average business owner founder, you're pumped. Initially, you're working at night and day, you're passionate, and your stress hormones are jammed on. That's what's actually letting you do that. But that's fine, because when you're exhausted, you just think about the goal and the vision and the team and the people. Yeah. But then you overcompensate with willpower, caffeine, alcohol, and adrenaline. And that's when the problems start. But you actually might not notice. So you're running low on adrenaline, noradrenaline activity hormones, and each time you have to up regulate, it's getting harder. So then you speed yourself up. And there's this almost manic, compulsive busyness feel to it, you're doing all the things, and you start getting a bit irritable, and you start getting a bit forgetful. And you start losing your temper when you wouldn't normally, and your productivity starts to decline. And so your self confidence starts to decline. And leaders are meant to have all the answers, leaders are meant to be okay all the time. And you're not, but who are you going to talk to about it, because you need to save strong for your time, and you don't want to worry your family and friends, you're always tired, you might lose or gain weight, and you're always grumpy, you're not sleeping well. And that's only starting to get potentially into clinical symptoms. Depressed mood, hyper, vigilant, anxious, and there we are, we've gone down the spiral. And

Ron Tomlian:

I think there's no problem was running under adrenaline and passion for a while. But I think there's a kind of badge of honour. If I can do things that no one else can do, I only need four hours sleep, I can get all that sort of thing. We glorify it. And we do we put people up on a pedestal because they can do these things that know what they're superhuman, but they're not. And what was interesting for me is that we had, I spoke to someone about 10 years ago, about what he called peering and allostatic load. And you can look that up if you're interested. And he said that there's a badge of honour about it. But there's a downside. And if you continue to carry this load, it can decrease your lifespan significantly. And what's more important, and I think relevant to a lot of business leaders who don't see this as anything more than a little bit of extra stress, is that it significantly reduces your productivity, you take twice as long to make decisions, and your capacity for reflective thinking is almost zero. So you're very busy, and you're doing stuff, but it's not very productive.

Samantha Young:

I think we're a bit delusional, wrong, that we kid ourselves, we tell ourselves, I'm fine. And if I was to invite you, wonderful gentleman to play Russian roulette with me right now, what would you say? No? Excellent answer, right. So you wouldn't do that in physical life. But we do it with our well being. So we gamble. And the analogy I want to use is reading a manual car. Okay, so I want you to picture me at 18. My first car that I bought was a manual car, and driving down my northeast Road in my new manual car, except I didn't know how to drive and then your car, and I was pulled over by the police. And I want you to picture sobbing pathetic, 17 year old. And instead of booking me, he said, I'll teach you how to drive the car. So you can get home. And he said, Don't Redline and I said why? And he said, If you redline too hard, you'll blow the engine up. So good to know mechanically right? But we do it all the time with our well being. Okay, yes. And we let the needle just stay in the red and we get away with it. We got I can I can get away with this. It's fine. How do you know when the engine is gonna blow? I can't answer that when it's back on the road when it's too late. It's too late. So this is what we do with burnout. We ignore it. We avoid it. We're in denial until it's too late.

Brenton Gowland:

Interesting. That's like your frog experiment. Do you know what white coat syndrome is? Blood pressure goes up. Yeah. So every time I go the doctor that happens and on my last visit she said White Coat syndrome is something we measure now because it's like you get a rock and you get a hammer and you start hitting the rock every time. You have that white coat syndrome experience and your blood pressure is going right up. It's like smashing the rock with a hammer. So what point is the break. Eventually, when you find out it does, Yeah, correct. Yeah. So she said, we still measure that. And I'm like, damn it. Now I have to get my brain right and not get white coat syndrome. But it's the same kind of thing that I'm hearing is that there's this pressure that builds up. And the scary part is, like you're saying is we don't know that it's happening until it's too late. And I think I shared with you beforehand, I saw my mother have a complete mental breakdown when she was in her 40s. She was catatonic in the chair for probably two to three months. And my brother and I were instructed that we had to constantly give him massages, and so forth. So she felt human touch. And the doctors gave her audio tapes and different things, positive reinforcement to listen to light hypnosis, telling her she was a good person, and that she could get herself out of this. And my mom's a very strong woman. And she got out of it. And she's a lot older now. But she said to me, a while back, Brenton is like I feel a wave coming on. I can feel the symptoms when they're approaching now because I recognise it. And she said, I know what to do. I know that I need to start my positive reinforcement, meditate, do all these things. And I can get it under control. But it took a years. Once she went over that tipping point, you were talking about her life completely changed. And she had to then manage this new condition, whether it's clinical or not, I don't know at that point. But it sounds like you said it was a syndrome. The leaving out Yeah, the lead up was like a syndrome. And then once we go over that cliff, we've got a diagnosable condition of some sort. And it's, you know, Russian Roulette as that condition might be, but at very best, it's your business fails, which is a terrible thing. But then if your health goes with it, too, that's the rest of your life.

Samantha Young:

Exactly. Exactly. And I think COVID took a toll, certainly in Sydney and Melbourne when you talk to people there, but you know, globally. And I think we've all bought into this idea that it's gone, and that our resources are renewed. And everything is great.

Brenton Gowland:

And everyone's trying to get people back into their offices again. Yeah. When

Samantha Young:

we talk to workforces people are tired. They are purporting feeling disengaged, they're reporting feeling malaise. And these are the early warning signs.

Brenton Gowland:

Interesting.

Ron Tomlian:

So you've given us some insight into the negative effects of burnout in business in terms of if it goes any further. How does it impact productivity, things like sick leave, and overall physical and mental health.

Samantha Young:

The first thing I'd say is as a leader, as a business owner, you're modelling so your people are watching you kind of in a spooky, sneaky way all the time. So firstly, your behaviour is modelling your genuine commitment to well being. So take my advice, I'm not using it. Yeah. So if your self care practices are poor, that's what you're communicating to your team. So firstly, that's going to impact productivity, then, burnout impairs our cognitive functions. So if your brain is in a fight flight, DEFCON three, state, the connectivity with your prefrontal cortex is kind of gone. So that impacts your decision making your concentration, your short term memory, your emotional intelligence, your social skills. And so you get into productivity spiral, then, because you're working harder and harder for less and less return. So I think it impacts our workforce, both directly and indirectly. And then it impacts our ability to do our job as a leader and a business owner.

Brenton Gowland:

So with what you're saying those impacts in would be real in creating sicknesses and having people not coming to work days off all that kind of stuff, especially if we're modelling poor lifework balance, our staff are going to suffer, right?

Samantha Young:

Well, I noticed my staff slave balance is gone. Sick leave balances gone into that perfect storm of flu, RSV, COVID. And their families, so taking leave for their children. And you know, I've got team members that have been sick for six months, you know, because maybe it's long COVID Maybe it's just compromised immunity, but you're coming off a low base then. So if you think of resilience spiralling or wellness, or spiralling, it's like a leaky bucket. So you've got to put resources back in, you can't just keep drawing indefinitely on resilience. And that's what business owners think they can and should do. And they have to accept they're human, they're having a human response. And we've all got a finite capacity.

Brenton Gowland:

So business owners have got all those pressures in the background driving them, but then they're driving their staff to sickness. And so is this a common thing with people when they're sick leave when it's used up? What do they do then? Do they just come into work? Because they need the money or do they not come and not get paid?

Samantha Young:

Depends on their job. So my daughter's a paramedic in London and they've been told not to test for COVID so they can come to work still. Well, which is pretty horrifying. So if you've got a policy where people can't come to work sick and they can't work from home, they're not getting paid. Yeah. Which is then cost of living at the moment compounds financial stress, and yeah, it's tough out there at them.

Brenton Gowland:

And so it takes a pretty special kind of boss to actually a trained boss, someone who understands the impacts of burnout to become that filter for our staff then and that then puts pressure on us it does. So how many without getting into detail? How many leaders do you see versus people from work places like employees? What's the ratio to leaders versus employees?

Samantha Young:

I think that's hard to say it's, I think it's a different presentation. Okay. I think that that comes down to spheres of control and what the stresses are, yeah, so a stressful if I am an emergency department Doctor, is going to be very different to the stressful of CEO of a mining company. So and then we don't know what's going on in people's personal lives. So everyone's got different stuff going on in their personal lives. And one thing I've learned in what say how long I've been a psychologist that a long time is that you never know what's going on in other people's lives ever. And so we don't know what other stressors are lying in the background that could be feeding into that burnout equation.

Ron Tomlian:

So for companies and business builders who care what's the canary in the coal mine? What can they look for? How do they get better at detecting the signs of potential burnout in themselves, but also in their people?

Samantha Young:

I'll start in reverse. I'll start with their people. So I'd be looking at metrics like absenteeism, change in productivity, looking for change, sustained behaviour at work. So the warning signs, like someone's become more irritable or tearful, or taking more sick days or not hitting their targets. So they'd be sort of the quantitative ones. But qualitatively, it's like, ask people, like start the conversation. How are you and genuinely wait for the answer. You can kind of tell when someone's not themselves. Yeah. And it's about making it safe from a psychosocial safety point of view. For people to feel they can be honest without being penalised.

Brenton Gowland:

This is why there's a big push on psychological safety at the moment, because I noticed everywhere I go, everyone's talking about psychological safety. That's more

Samantha Young:

legal. So it's now legislation that if you as a business director, Owner, CEO, are aware of risks to psychosocial safety in your workplace and you fail to take reasonable management action, you are now breaking the law? Well, that's

Brenton Gowland:

a good thing.

Samantha Young:

I think it is. Absolutely, because it's what's reasonable, which is a tricky legal term, but you need to identify, assess and mitigate as far as as reasonable. Those risks, and a lot of businesses aren't doing that.

Brenton Gowland:

And taking that a step further. I'm sure there's a tonne of staff that don't feel like they can take a break, even if they are sick, or they've got issues and so forth. And that's just putting more pressure more loading up that burnout trap even further.

Samantha Young:

I don't think it's just taking breaks. It's people not taking annual leave. It's people checking emails on their phone, after hours, 24/7. It's people watching the boss work 60 hours a week and then getting an email from the boss on a Saturday and feeling they've got to respond to it, and razor things tight. So the sense of this relentless, chronic overwork, I think, is definitely present at the moment I saw this

Brenton Gowland:

article in the advertiser I think it was a few weeks ago were actually talked about, it's okay not to respond to the boss at three o'clock in the morning, was his whole thing of bosses doing exactly that and causing people stress and grief, but was kind of talking about you got to teach them how to treat you. It's okay to say no outside of work hours.

Samantha Young:

In some workplaces. It's not though.

Brenton Gowland:

Interesting. Can you give us an example,

Samantha Young:

I can neither confirm nor No, for instance, but in some workplaces, there is a culture of overwork.

Brenton Gowland:

So but you're saying it's a culture?

Samantha Young:

thing, right? It's not right. Correct. Yeah.

Brenton Gowland:

So there's lots of lots of food here for thought, if you're listening, and you're resonating with any of this, because I know that some of the things that have been said, I'm thinking Yep, that's me. That's me. Oh, I do that. I'm guilty of that, particularly not taking holidays, which we talked about last week.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. That's a really interesting one. Because the next thing you're going to move on to Sam was about me and I as in as an individual business builder, how do I look for the signs in me, but an interesting conversation I had with someone the other day, who's a business leader who runs his own business, I asked him, when was the last time you had a holiday? And he said, we're starting to look a bit sheepish. And I said, Well, look, let's just look at how many weeks annual leave. We worked out. There was 65 weeks annual leave, he was out, didn't even get long service leave. You know, it's pretty telling that if you're not taking leave, there's probably a certain pressure on other people not to do it either. And this gentleman suddenly realised he probably had a number of people who were candidates for burnout apart from himself. He hadn't realised it because he never looked at it.

Samantha Young:

Let's circle back to some of the warning signs for people. Yes, please. So I think sleep is the canary in the coal mine. So I The difficulty is getting to sleep because you've got racing thoughts, waking up a lot during the night, early morning waking, which is like you know, 4am without an alarm and you can't get back to sleep, or frequent nightmares, or some people's excessive sleep. So 1215 hours a day and it's this escape sort of thing. So you feel fatigued most days drained, overwhelmed, then you start procrastinating, and not delegating as much and going to those sort of low urgency and importance tasks rather than the big meaty ones. We've talked about cognitive impairments, so troubles concentrating, forgetting, lack of productivity, physical symptoms, so it could be the chest pain, like you experienced Brenton and could be frequent headaches or stomach upset. You might feel depressed or anxious. They are recognised as mental illnesses in their own right, obviously, irritable cynical, socially detached, self medicating with we like to call them maladaptive coping mechanisms for talking alcohol, it's coffee, too much caffeine, which if you've already got a racing heart isn't going to help any of those sorts of self medicating drugs like alcohol, caffeine, nicotine,

Brenton Gowland:

or remember once I went to the doctor with something like that, he asked sly how many coffees Do you have a day? Oh, seven or eight? It was like, Yeah, you might want to cut down that was back when CRM but every second meeting we had it was during a coffee and you just do it naturally?

Samantha Young:

Doesn't that show how we propping up our biology with artificial stimulants, right? It really

Brenton Gowland:

does. But it becomes part of work culture.

Samantha Young:

So some of the things I want people to think about causing burnout, you know that you don't have much work life balance. And you tell yourself that it's the choice. And that when the business is, you know, at some moving future target, that is going to happen one day, but just right now, you have to invest everything in the business, but it's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow that never comes or we call it

Brenton Gowland:

sweat, equity, sweat equity. I love that. And having heard that, oh, that's a common kind of thing that, particularly entrepreneurs say that they're not getting paid enough. So they put in sweat equity, because I'm putting in sweat equity now to get paid back later.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, is the value of our business. I was just speaking to someone earlier

Brenton Gowland:

today use that terminology. And it did indeed, interesting. Sweat equity has no guarantee of payback.

Samantha Young:

And it's interesting to then think about where your locus of control is. So do you want to just explain what that is? Yeah. Are you running your business? Or is it running you? And what's the locus of control locus of control is whether or not you feel you have agency over what happens to you Gotcha. And if you start losing that internal locus of control, you're actually going to end up resenting your staff and resenting your business. And to me, that's then getting into the UI in burnout. And I know there'll be people listening, owning businesses running it going, oh, yeah, I've heard myself say, if it wasn't for these damn people and clients, this would be a great business. Yeah.

Brenton Gowland:

I've seen a lot of that kind of stuff. But I think of my own language. I've even said on this podcast or on there's been times where I've thought my business was a ball and chain around my ankle and stopped me from travelling or it stopped me from this. Because I've always said, you know, my responsibility is to feed X amount of people, you know, so you feel that weight of responsibility upon you. So it becomes this thing. Everyone says, Well, I don't want to work for a boss for someone else, because I don't want someone controlling me. But like it or not, whatever you do, something will be exercising control over you, in some fashion, whether it's the tax man, whether it's the ability to pay people, whether it's whatever it is, there's some sort of factor that will be within your realm. Well,

Ron Tomlian:

I think that that's a difference. It's, it's whether it's influence, or you perceive it as control.

Samantha Young:

Absolutely. I also think it's being like genuine about our priorities. So I think our time and money follow our priorities, and that's a really hard one to argue, right? Yeah. And there's this stunning book called Five Regrets of the Dying crisis written by a palliative care hospice nurse, brawny were fabulous, fabulous. And it sounds depressing, but it's very life affirming. And it's giving us an opportunity right now to learn the lessons. People have told her on their deathbed. And the only time work is mentioned is I wish I hadn't worked so hard.

Brenton Gowland:

We only just spoke about that in the last episode. What's a life well lived look like?

Samantha Young:

Exactly. And it's relationships is joy, it's experiences. It's not about whether I got the title or the office or the promotion or the BMW or, you know,

Brenton Gowland:

perhaps people who have those experiences, make better leaders and make better business builders to be honest, because travelling is like another university degree all together. If you go and visit different places around the world, it brings you broad experience.

Samantha Young:

I think the other thing that happens though, is we when we're in the fight flight as we're going up the DEF CON stages, the sense of urgency becomes out of control and we catastrophize and I must do this. I have to, you know, this very urgent black and white rigid language sets in. Yes. And we stopped delegating, because it's just quicker and easier if I don't myself, you know, it's going to take too long to get someone to do it. Yep. And the distance we then feel in our relationships makes it hard to be vulnerable. And how many leaders feel comfortable going tame? I'm not doing okay. At the moment.

Brenton Gowland:

Not many, but it's actually that's starting to change. I think there's education growing around that, but it's still needing a lot of work. I think so. And to that point, you were saying that tomorrow is a ok day.

Samantha Young:

It is. And the whole point of that campaign is to raise awareness about mental health, that in our lifetime, one and two of us, one out of two of us will have mental health struggles, not necessarily a clinical disorder, and 20% of your workforce at any one time is dealing with some mental health stuff. Right. So it's about D stigmatising mental health challenges, and then just starting a conversation with people.

Brenton Gowland:

So if you're a business builder, if you're a leader, if you're a CEO, if you're anyone within our listener group is resonating with this today. Sam, what's your advice to those people?

Samantha Young:

I think it's about standing in the hall of mirrors, and getting real getting honest with yourself about how am I tracking right now. And there's heaps of ways of doing that you can ask the people around you that are often witnessing it. There are apps you can go on to with wellbeing checks, beyond blues got a whole section of Avon business health checks, yeah, and free resources. But diagnostic, where am I on the DEF CON? Yeah. And then you need a toolkit that is going to help you get the bounce back up.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so let's say on the area advice that you're recognising some of these symptoms in your own life, so you've got the sleep problems, you've got the stresses, you're overworking your internal dialogue has started to change, you have all the things that you've been talking about if you're starting to recognise that, how do we manage that without getting to the stage of burnout? How do we work with what we've got and start bringing ourselves back down from DEFCON four to three to two and so on.

Samantha Young:

So starting with self compassion, okay, and that you are a human that's allowed to have this reaction because it's really normal. I read a stat this morning, I couldn't resist sharing this with you small business owners say that managing their businesses is four times more stressful than raising children. That's a kind of that's a lot, right? That's, that's pretty stressful,

Brenton Gowland:

like you're spending more time with your business partners, and you are with the actual party actually

Samantha Young:

are. And so then you need to make a commitment to yourself, that this is not how you want to live, that this is not how you want your life to look. My youngest daughter's in year 12. And she was choosing university degrees the other day, and I think she'd be an amazing psychologist, right? And she said, I'm not doing that. And I said, why not? And she goes, I'm going to work the way you've worked. I don't want my life to look like yours. Ouch, right? And I said, No, that's because I'm a CEO. Like I run a company. It's not from being a psychologist. And she goes, Well, can they have nice lives? Psychologists can they? So from the mouths of one's teenager? Getting feedback from those around you can be pretty

Ron Tomlian:

challenging is the word

Brenton Gowland:

fronting? Yes. Like any feedback you get when you're not looking for it.

Samantha Young:

Yeah, it I really sat sat with it, though. I really sat with it. So it's about back to our priorities we talked about is your health and well being a priority. And if you ask most people, what's most important to you in life? They will not say that first. They won't. If you're lucky, they'll say to my family, my friends, then my business in some way right down the bottom. When prompted. They'll go Oh, yeah, my health. Yeah. Whereas it should be at the top until you get a health

Brenton Gowland:

problem.

Samantha Young:

Well, it's not selfish. self care is not sick, not selfish is necessary. It's why you put your oxygen mask on first in the plane, is if you go down, the whole plane goes down.

Brenton Gowland:

But you notice when people get sick, particularly if they're a bit older, that's all they talk about. Yeah. And I guess what you're talking about is people who are predominantly well, they don't realise because it's silent. It's like you were saying about your car? You don't know it's got a problem to your break down. Yeah, exactly. It occurs to me that we're in a world with so much knowledge, there's no lack of information so that we can actually learn how to run this body, this person, this thing that we contained within if we're getting metaphorical, very well, if we do the research. Well,

Ron Tomlian:

interestingly, if you have an asset, thinking about business builders, businesses, there's not a business builder and not a business owner who wouldn't maintain their assets that they've just said That's irresponsible, correct. And yet the greatest asset you have other than the people in your business and but that's often a platitude. The greatest asset you have is your health it is and that includes your mental health and Your as you said before, you cannot help you cannot work with or for other people unless you're capable. And so I

Samantha Young:

think yeah, diagnostic, where am I and then get help get support, whatever that looks like for you, I don't presume to know people's social networks and what support looks like for them. But reaching out for and accepting support can make can be really scary. And that vulnerability makes us feel completely out of our depth. And I think in Australia, a lot of the time weak, we perceive it as being weak rather than it actually is one of the strongest things you can possibly do. And then you got to consider change is hard. So what can you delegate drop, do differently, not just tasks, but how you're thinking about your business? Because all of you I know everyone listening, that runs a business is trying to engineer and architect it such that the business is not dependent on them. Yes. What percentage? Do you think of leaders have pulled that

Brenton Gowland:

off? 510? Maybe say why? Yeah. Well, that's an interesting question. That takes a lot of resource to get to a point where it's not dependent on you. And on the some of the businesses I'm working with, I'm watching people try to separate themselves in it. It means a lot of hard decisions on their part as well. It also means trusting other people, that's difficult.

Ron Tomlian:

I think a lot of it comes down to ego. Tell me about that. I don't want to think that I'm not indispensable. I'd like to think that the whole thing runs on me, because I built it, because I want it to be that way. And every time I've sort of stepped away, things have gone wrong. It's not my fault. I'm just better than everyone else. And I need to keep asserting that. And as I think people build up this idea of they're the only ones who can do things, as you said before,

Brenton Gowland:

that's self worth right there. Well,

Ron Tomlian:

it's self worse than that in a kind of deranged way. In my opinion, it's not saying I'm worthy. It's I am the only one who can do this

Samantha Young:

content to fear because I think most behaviour does. Yeah. And if you strip back and go, Well, what's the underlying fear? It's fear of losing the business, because we're so invested in this, it's ours, it's in our DNA. And to let that go is painful. So I actually sold human psychology in February. Tell us about that it to APM group. So there are two and a half billion dollar ASX listed wellbeing. Congratulations. Thank you. And that was back in February. And I'm the CEO. And it's it if I'm not careful, my mindset still is, this is my business. And I'm running it the way that I always have. And it's really been quite interesting, trying to recalibrate how I approach the business. It's not mine anymore. And I'm much healthier for it, because I've got a different mindset, because it's not all on me.

Brenton Gowland:

So what's your perspective? Then? Like? How is your perspective change? Because how long ago did you sell it? You said, February? So what's that? Six, seven months? How has your perspective changed since you owned it? And we're going through the process of selling it to now because how long do you have to continue? I would imagine you have to work for that company for a period of time, hopefully? Yes. That would be usually when you have a sale, you have to work a couple extra years have

Samantha Young:

to work at least another year, but I'd probably like to stick around. Yeah, that's great.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. So how's your perspective change then the best,

Samantha Young:

the best example I can give you is payroll. No, seriously. And you know, you check your bank account, and you're like, we've got payroll coming up. And it's x 10s of 1000s. of dollars. And I don't feel that same cashflow stress anymore, because I had a parent company. I also have an amazing Group CEO that I can pick up the phone and go, Hey, this is happening. What do you reckon, and I'm actually getting now I've got support around me, whereas it felt quite isolating before. And yeah, just access to resources. And also, this is not my company I just kept keep telling myself, it's not mine. And you can actually feel the weight lift. So it's not a judgement I'm making of business owners when I say how invested they are, but I think for the best thing they could do for their well being is work out how to get this thing to run without them investing literally their well being in it.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, that's interesting. You know, that sweat equity in a different way? Yeah. But what

Brenton Gowland:

I see there, too, is this this maturity of thinking, because when you talk with business people, we talk about the fact that we build a business to sell it, like all the books that I know that I've read, talk about start with the end in mind. So I want to be able to sell this for x million dollars, and I want to be able to make a life and that and then what's next? Well, I think that way anyway, some people want legacy. I know that that's the thing. I probably am not that guy. I'm the guy who wants to build a thing and sell it and do another thing. So I think what you've done is literally perfect because that level of experience that you now have from going through that whole cycle is very helpful, particularly in what you do.

Samantha Young:

Being an employee though. It hits different. It just feels different. It feels lighter. It feels I don't know On i on the weekends, I'm not working every weekend now. And am I more productive? Yes. Do I have better relationships with my team? Yes, I'm letting myself be more strategic. I'm carving time out in my diary to be not as billable. So I'm kind of doing the things now as an employee that I should have done as a business owner.

Ron Tomlian:

It's interesting that there will be some people listening to this, who will say the air, that's fantastic. I know what to do now. But just because business leaders know what to do doesn't mean they do it. So how do you get people to prevent burnout? Or think about this stuff before they get the crisis state?

Samantha Young:

Okay, so let's talk about self care. So we always go back, strip it right back to fundamentals, sleep, diet, exercise. Yeah. Now we all know what to do. Everyone listening, smart, capable person. And there's an inverse relationship between self care practices and stress. So have you noticed that that the more stressed you are, the more likely you are to not go to the gym, to eat badly and to not sleep? Absolutely. So and it's about your present self winning over your future self. So let's say we got home tonight. It's been a long day, and there's bottle wine on the counter and Netflix is queued into either a pull on my gym gear and go for that run, or do I open a bottle of wine and sit numb watching Netflix?

Ron Tomlian:

So you've been to my house?

Samantha Young:

Yeah, I was just think I've got some good Netflix going on at the moment. Has anyone watched alone? The series on SBS? But yeah, so they dropped 10 people in the West of Tasmania and they have to survive on their own. And I would last I think, 48 hours because there's no relational connection, they literally start going crazy, right?

Brenton Gowland:

So they're literally on their own. They're not with those 10 people. Yeah.

Samantha Young:

So what we need to do is override the desire for dopamine, which is the little buzz you get when you get notifications on your phone. It's like gambling, that's what slot machine poker machines are. For. Serotonin, serotonin, so the slowburn dopamine is the spike. So you have to convince yourself just over that threshold to go for the run. Because how are you going to feel if you go for the run?

Brenton Gowland:

Right at the end of it? Yeah.

Samantha Young:

I mean, I feel smug. And smug if I've exercised, but like, yeah, me well done. It makes you feel good endorphins, and it burns off stress chemicals. So set yourself small, achievable goals that are built into your daily routine. Okay. And once you get those under your belt, so it might be I'm going to take a lunch break. And I know that sounds like really trivial. And how many people do not take lunch breaks? Absolutely. Yeah, go for a walk.

Ron Tomlian:

And again, this is part of the culture. It's sometimes for some people a badge of honour, I don't I don't lunch. I don't take lunch breaks. I worked.

Samantha Young:

What a legend I am. Yeah, look how hard I'm working. I know it sounds really hope pro but mindfulness meditation practices. So I want you to think about formal relaxation, letting go of tension.

Brenton Gowland:

As I said to you, I saw my mother. And I saw the effect that meditation had on her. I'm a total believer in that now, but it's because I've witnessed it. And I saw how it changed it. And I realised that helps me as well just to change my thinking,

Samantha Young:

and take back control of your calendar. Alright, so I want you to go through your diary from the last month and look at how you've used your time, how you've allowed your time to be used. And how much of that is in strategic, deep thinking, adding value to the business, and how much of it wasn't and ruthlessly re architect how you invest your time,

Ron Tomlian:

doing trivial stuff gets back to that allostatic load that we're talking about. And the busyness I can keep myself busy all day. But is it actually doing anything? Well,

Samantha Young:

biologically, we're actually not designed to be busy all the time. And it's become an almost badge of honour in 2023. If you ask someone how they are, they go, Oh, my God, I'm so busy as if it's good. And if you said, Look, I literally just sat around all weekend and stared at the sky, people who think there was something wildly wrong with you.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, they make heroes of Elon Musk, and I'm sure he's done great things. But he famously talks about how he sleeps in his factory or works around the clock. And that's the only way we'll get things done. And maybe that's how he can work. Do you find that? There are people and individuals who can do that?

Samantha Young:

No, not without a call, everything's got to cost every choice. So my mom used to say to me, choose your behaviour, choose the consequences, right? He will pay a cost for that. So back to priorities. Yeah. What are your core values? And how do you align your choices with those values? And if you're genuinely saying wellbeing is a priority, then you've got to walk the talk,

Ron Tomlian:

you know that all of this is backed by research. And I think the one that had the most effect on me when I first read about it was the Harvard study about what's most important in people's lives because it at the end of the day when we talk about success, and we'll certainly do that as one element of this life work balance concept. When we talk about success, most people will say, Well, you know, having good relationships is the thing that makes you happy. Well,

Samantha Young:

we're in a lot Loneliness epidemic. So when you look at risk factors to longevity, you've got obesity, diabetes, smoking, there's all these health factors, loneliness is equivalent. So loneliness will kill you as quick as those things will. And so if we're investing all our time and energy and creativity in building our business and leaving nothing for the rest of our lives, then can be very empty looking like,

Brenton Gowland:

you know what the key thing I hear from business leaders about running a businesses, particularly if their person at the top of the business and there's not a board, it's how lonely it is. So I was doing some interviews, like with people the other day, and this owner of a rather large organisation was saying they've just employed a CEO to come around the business, and my hat's off to you fantastic. And now they obviously become the managing director or whatever it is, but they said that I'm looking forward to someone I can share the stress with. I'm looking forward to someone that I can talk about the things that have kept me up at night. Yeah, and I think that's telling.

Ron Tomlian:

And I think if you're a business leader, business builder, and you don't have someone to talk to, there's plenty of mechanisms out there nowadays, you know, run these tech groups and do coaching with people. And it is the number one reason that people join a group they talk to, they rationalise it by saying, I'll improve my performance, I'll prove my effectiveness. But the truth of the matter is, it's someone to talk to,

Brenton Gowland:

and I bring us back to the very first episode we ever had was about six ways to improve at business networking, right. And I bring us back to that whole networking thing, being able to network with peers and like minded people, but doing it in such a way where you don't have to be selling all the time actually finding running partners. And I think that whole aspect of business, the networking part is so important. For way more than just winning work, it's actually to be able to find people, you can talk to people that you can bounce things off of people that can be confidants, and groups, like your tech group are an extension of that. And other groups that are around I'm sure there's plenty of

Ron Tomlian:

Oh, yeah, I mean, and quite frankly, the reason there's a proliferation of those groups, is because there's a need for

Brenton Gowland:

it. And I'll mention what this is, but there's a group called Mates in Construction. And we'll get this guy to come along and speak because I've spoken to him a number of times. And it's no drama that I'm speaking about this, because he speaks about this in front of crowds of 1000. People. He was suicidal for a whole bunch of time got through it is it was detrimental, of course to his family, but his wife and he stayed together. And she went through all the torturous kind of activities and thinking and darkness that went on in that situation. But they then formed Mates in Construction, because they realised that in the construction industry, there's a lot of people that are probably the same. And as you said, Sam, everyone was quiet about it. And so people suffer on their own. And then unfortunately, and we've had people that were all of us in this, the three of us because we know each other, we know people who have taken their own lives in the past couple of years, who had been great business people, and no one ever saw it coming. You think, wow, what's going on. But this might seem construction thing is another example of what you're talking about. There's groups everywhere that are forming that you can get help from. And I guess that leads us, though, I think we could, I'm feeling that I want to just keep talking about this, because this is really interesting. And I find myself aligning with a lot of the things that have been said, I think I'm back down at DEF CON two now. So I'm much happier with where I am. But it's, it's taken a while. And if you're listening to us today, and you're at you're at DEF CON four, or three or even two, and you want to get back to one, what advice would you have for the business builders that are listening? So we talk to business builders, people who want to work on themselves to build their businesses? What advice and tips would you have for the people listening today about how they can the best few things they can do to either get help or start bringing that DEF CON level down?

Samantha Young:

Okay, three things I think one is reconnect with your leadership purpose. And if you're just running this business, or building this business to sell it, then that's going to be really stressful and really difficult. There needs to be some intrinsic motivation in there as well. That you feel like you're making a difference that you feel that that legacy idea that you mentioned before, then ask yourself, Is this behaviour consistent with my desired professional brand? So I asked one of my team how I was coming across at the start of the year and they said you're rushed, you're busy, you seem unavailable. And obviously my first response to that was Yeah, but you don't understand and and and and that was a relevant my defensiveness and justification was irrelevant. That's how I was coming across. So soliciting feedback, particularly the type you don't want to hear. Yeah, yeah, I think that's fantastic advice, and then implement a personalised self care toolkit, right, a preventative toolkit, what are the things you're going to commit to doing that are going to keep your energy levels replenished and keep your well being high? Right? That's true. Totally individual thing. But what are the things that you need to start doing stop doing do differently, that are going to genuinely reflect self care and self care can be really ugly, like self care could be getting rid of toxic relationships. It could be sorting your finances or tax department stuff out, but a genuine commitment to putting your oxygen mask on first. Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

self care is not about indulging in behaviours that you find enjoyable, but aren't doing you any good.

Samantha Young:

No, it's not running a bubble bath and lighting a candle, you know, hashtag live, laugh, love? No, it's not. It's deeper than that. And how you talk to yourself as well is self care.

Brenton Gowland:

So when can you find resources to help you build a kit like that?

Samantha Young:

Look, honestly, if you go on to the App Store and put in wellbeing, it will explode with 1000s of free and paid apps. beyondblue has got some fantastic resources in the Black Dog Institute specifically for businesses. And there's links on there for small business owners. And there's a whole bunch of funding that's just gone to small business owners where they can get free coaching and mental health support. So yeah, go to be on blue and put that in and start the journey.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay. And when we were talking in getting prepared for this, you said that if you've gone over the edge, and you've experienced burnout, then you can actually recover? Of course, now we don't have time to go into that today. But I would love to have you back. And maybe for the next episode, should we just continue this on? I'd love to great because I think this is really valuable. And look, if you're out there listening today, and you want to connect with us, we have a LinkedIn group, it's called the Business Builders podcast, get on there and just ask to become a member. And we'll accept you and put you in. And you can make any comments you'd like ask any questions you'd like.

Samantha Young:

And maybe I can give you the links to put on there the resources that we've just mentioned,

Brenton Gowland:

that would be excellent. I'd really appreciate that, Sam, and I think our listeners would incredibly appreciate that, too. So we will continue this series on and I think even in the discussion we've had today, it sounds like Ron, we need to do an episode on sleep, an episode on holidays, and in a whole bunch of other things in there too, to get this whole topic kind of rounded out. But I think it's going to take a little time.

Ron Tomlian:

It's worthwhile because it's something that's important to people. And as Sam was saying before, it's something that isn't talked about enough.

Brenton Gowland:

Agreed. And if you are listening and you do need help, as we said, Being a leader is all about leading by example. So reach out to someone for help.

Samantha Young:

And if you're in Australia Lifeline is a fantastic resource, which you can just Google to get the number for that. And don't forget tomorrow in Australia at least is R U OK Day.

Brenton Gowland:

This podcast will be coming out in a few days. So we'll be post that day,

Samantha Young:

You can still continue the conversation.

Brenton Gowland:

will look Thank you, Sam, and thank you for listening to us. But we're going to sign off for today and we'll see you again in a couple weeks.

Ron Tomlian:

So it's goodbye from me.

Brenton Gowland:

And it's goodbye from me.

Samantha Young:

And it's goodbye for me.