Business Builders Podcast

5 Key Attributes of a Business Development Mindset

Brenton Gowland & Ron Tomlian Season 2 Episode 27

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In today's episode, we are continuing our theme on driving business development with a conversation about mindset. So our hosts Brenton Gowland and Ron Tomlian are talking about 5 key attributes of a business development mindset that's geared to generate results.

The topics covered in this episode are: 

  • The problem with Business Development and Sales
  • What is the right Business Development mindset?
    • Attribute 1 - Purposeful Curiosity
    • Attribute 1A - Self-Awareness
    • Attribute 2 - Detachment
    • Attribute 3 - A desire to actually help
    • Attribute 4 - Knowing when to let go
    • Attribute 5 - Persistence
  • Summary and conclusion
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Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Business Builders Podcast. Until next time, keep building!

Brenton Gowland:

Today on The Business Builders podcast, we're talking about five key attributes to cultivate a business development mindset. Ron shares a great timeless principle about mindset from the 1947 version of a miracle on 34th street and I talk about what we can learn about detachment from the Kenny Rogers song, the Gambler. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts. I am Brenton Gowland.

Ron Tomlian:

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

And Ron, it seems to be the season for bugs and so forth.

Ron Tomlian:

Different types of bugs than what I'd think of with bugs. So you're talking about Colds? Yeah, not everything's negative about that. Listen to yourself at the moment, that beautiful husky voice.

Brenton Gowland:

The reason I bring this up everyone is because I'm gonna try my best not to cough but I'm just on the back end have a fantastic lurgi and no, it was not COVID It's the first time I've been sick in about three years since this whole COVID thing started.

Ron Tomlian:

Touch wood I am still at the uninfectious stage of a no no colds for about three years.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah.

Brenton Gowland:

Start to get back out in the world and the colds come. Yeah I've have been I've been jabbed for the flu. I've been jabbed for COVID still got a bug.

Ron Tomlian:

Pin Cushing Brenton they call you.

Brenton Gowland:

I think half the world's a pin cushion at the moment. Now we got monkey pox everyone's getting starting to get vaccinations for.

Ron Tomlian:

Alright. Okay. I'll try and avoid that one.

Brenton Gowland:

Okay, so sicknesses aside wasn't last episode, fantastic with Ian Tennent.

Ron Tomlian:

Yes well, to have that, that synergy between what we've been talking about previously. And that a practitioner actually giving his perspective on business development. And there to be such correlation between that was fantastic, really enjoyed that.

Brenton Gowland:

Agreed. And I like the fact that he, when we spoke to him, everything was about the customer. And of course, Ian deals in high end deals. But everything was about solving their problem. Nothing was like, I gotta get a sale, I gotta get a sale. It was all about how are we going to solve this problem? And I think that's absolutely so important to hear that when someone's talking, because not once, as I said, did I hear him say, I needed to get a sale.

Ron Tomlian:

And that's why I think it's important we talk about our discussion this week.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes. So because we're been doing this BD series, if you're listening, and you've come in, and maybe this is the first episode, or maybe you've been listening for a while, we have, again, been doing a series on business development. We've just ended that. And we ended up with the interview with Ian. And in the next fortnight, I'm very happy to say that we've got Bill Caskey, who's a sales trainer from the United States, and also runs something called the Advanced Selling Podcast. So please check it out. They've got like 800 episodes, which is all about business development. So obviously a big topic. But Bill will be joining us again, to discuss business development, and how to develop our skills and what is best practice and so forth. So very useful. But what we thought we'd do between these two exceptional guests, is talk to you about developing a business development mindset, what's the right mindset to be able to go out and successfully bring in work for our businesses.

Ron Tomlian:

And before we do that, we better talk about our sponsors.

Brenton Gowland:

We should so we have SA Business Builders, and I'm going to try not to cough, SA Business Builders who are a group of business development, well, not business development, I've got business development on the mind, their business professional, so CEOs, different executives, different business professionals. And we also have been really starting to bring in the young guns, which was talked about for a while, and starting to match up business development professionals with young guns to really pass on that knowledge and something really, we had a session about a week ago. And we had I had a gentleman that came along who has successfully sold a business in retirement, he specifically asked, can we, can I get involved in mentor some of these young guns? And unlike heck, yes.

Ron Tomlian:

Absolutely. And I think everyone either in some way or another should be involved in mentoring or being mentored, because it changes your perspective, it gives you new horizons to consider.

Brenton Gowland:

Absolutely. So if you've got something to share, you should really think about getting involved with a group and being able to do that. Because the other thing is that helps you grow. If you mentor other people, you really got to think about what it is you're doing. So you know, even if you're 26 years old, and you have something to share with someone who's 21 or older.

Ron Tomlian:

Reverse mentoring. It's it's the new thing.

Brenton Gowland:

I'm not sure that's new, but it's certainly becoming more accepted. But I just say get on it, pass on your skills. So we've also got Adapt_CO, which is made you want to give me your wrap, come on. You can do it.

Ron Tomlian:

Helping businesses when they don't have marketing capability within their organisation, helping them to get that and make yourself redundant in the process.

Brenton Gowland:

That's what I do.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, that's what Adapt_CO is all about.

Brenton Gowland:

So you can do that I'm gonna get you to do my promotions from now on fat ethic, you got a marketing background. Anyway, that's our sponsors, so two great sponsors, and I know that if you're in other countries, SA Business Builders won't be able to necessarily help you. But we hope to inspire you with some of this, that you do get involved with networking groups in your area, and you do start to mentor others Iif you've got that capability, and Adapt_CO, heck, I can help anyone anywhere around the world. So hit me up. Anyway, that's our sponsors. So let's get on to our topic. So let's start with Ron, if you're going to have the right mindset for business development, I think we got to start by looking at business development and look what maybe the wrong mindset is or what the problems are with business development and sales.

Ron Tomlian:

Problem with sales. Yeah, and I think it starts with understanding that the customer doesn't want to be sold to, as you think about yourself, and this is the good way of doing it. Nobody wants to feel like they've been sold to they want a solution to their problem. So customers want help, or they want a solution. They want a way out of their problem. They don't want a sale, and unfortunately, to be sold to. And unfortunately, a lot of salespeople go into the whole thing about I've got to get a sale.

Brenton Gowland:

Don't you love those messages on LinkedIn that you get from someone you go, should I accept this person, and you accept them. And then five minutes later, you get a generic sales message about I want to sell you this and you just like to press delete or tell them to run away.

Ron Tomlian:

It's a huge problem, in my opinion. And it comes down to mindset, the customer has a different mindset about what the interaction is about to the salesperson unless there's a meeting of those minds, it's always gonna end in disaster.

Brenton Gowland:

It comes down to that company who is driving that action to happen in that they are pushing their salespeople to do those kinds of things. So obviously, it must work. But are they the type of clients that we're looking for? Or is that the kind of business we're in? I think we got to ask that question as well.

Ron Tomlian:

I think the other thing too, is you say it must work. But does it work? In the short term with me, it doesn't happen in the short term maybe. But that's not the way to get long term loyalty from customers is not to wait the way to get customers to believe you have their best interests at heart. So I think it's a very short term transactional type of thinking. And, quite frankly, that's it's not going to work in a more sophisticated marketplace, where people are looking for, I want to trust the people I work, interact with, trust the people I use, and I want them to have reciprocity, I'm going to give them my money, I want them to provide me with a solution. And it's not just about a transaction.

Brenton Gowland:

So the problem was sales we could probably sum up there is that certain people have created a stigma in the market in the way that they conduct themselves. And it's those call centres. It's people who meet you at a business networking event, the first thing they want to do is tell you all about themselves, get the business card, etc. And you just think to yourself, Man, I don't want to talk to you. You're just you're just here to sell to me, that that whole thing of sales having a stigma is part of the problem.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. Well, it always I've always liked this particular analogy that the definition of malpractice in medicine is prescription before diagnosis. Well, isn't that what we're talking about with pushy salespeople? I've got the solution for you. Now, what's the problem? Are not even asking what the problem is?

Brenton Gowland:

So that begs the question, Why are these salespeople pushy? Right. And this, again, comes back to the problem with sales. So is it the fact that they get commissions so that unless they sell something, they're not getting a wage? Is it pressure from above? Is it that, you know, they have to get a sale or they might not be employed in you know, a few months? There's a whole heap of background things that go on that cause those behaviours? Yeah?

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, absolutely. And the other side of the coin is because that has been the case. I think we've all developed filters, we've all developed defence mechanisms. I know the CEOs that I work with are experts at smelling desperation or manipulation. They're experts at a feeling understanding that if this guy doesn't, or this girl doesn't first find out more about me and my needs and my wants. They're just trying to push something on me and I have great ways of fending them off or preventing them from making the sale.

Brenton Gowland:

I saw this situation SA Business Builders once we had a fairly high profile CEO come along who I met at an event and he said he just wanted to be able to hang out with people and have a beer and talk normally and play pool. Anyway, comes to this SA Business Builders we event we had at a pub, someone very high profile from Adelaide found out about this and sent two of his guys along specifically to sell to that guy. And I saw them come in and they were on him like a rash. And we're just selling the whole time. And I was watching this transpire and thinking, this guy is just being harassed by these people. So we ended up.

Ron Tomlian:

Rescuing him.

Brenton Gowland:

Rescuing him and getting those other two gents into a conversation and, and almost barricaded this guy in a corner with the right people. And at the end of the night, he said, I really want to thank you. This has been one of the best nights I've ever had, and in a long time, and he said that he saw exactly what went on. And he knew what we had done. And he said he just appreciate it massively. And we had a long term relationship with this guy after that we didn't sell to him at all. But those conversations just massively important because you build a great rapport with people in the right way.

Ron Tomlian:

And people want to buy from people who they trust.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah,

Ron Tomlian:

Quite frankly. And they don't want you know, what's interesting is that increasingly, I find that people, there's not there should be nothing wrong with sales, but there is a stigma about it. And people are asking to be called business development people why? Because they don't want to be called salespeople.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. And I think part of that does come down to the businesses that drive these people because they put certain measures in place. And yes, we must get sales for the business to run. But when you put it the wrong kind of pressure, you create the wrong kind of mindset in your actual salespeople, and you almost set them up for in a scence failure. But again, it depends on the business. Because if it's very, very high turnover, then there's no reason to create a relationship. But let's be frank, I know that a lot of our listeners here are in businesses where they need to build long term relationships with clients. And what you need to do is create an environment where the right mindset can be created. But let's say you can't do that. Let's say you're a business development person, and you want to get results. Let's go from the stigma. So the problem with sales is yes, there's a stigma, that there can be all sorts of factors driving their behaviour, that people can smell desperation, like you were talking about when you're CEOs that people try to manipulate you to get a sale. How do you love this one? Well, I'm going to put a time limited offer on that. Whenever I hear that I go, and I'm just gonna say goodbye.

Ron Tomlian:

Because it's a form of manipulation.

Brenton Gowland:

So what is the right mindset, Ron, so if we are the business development person, or even if we're a CEO, in a company, to CEOs, we're talking about creating an environment where the right mindset is created. But let's talk about what we want the mindset in the person when I go out to sell my product or create opportunities, what mindset should I have?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, it let's start with the whole matching process. My organisation wants to help another organisation or another person. So I need to know what help they need, what are their needs, the only way you're going to find that out is by being curious, by being genuinely interested in that organisation or that person. And I, but it's not curiosity for the sake of curiosity. It's purposeful curiosity.

Brenton Gowland:

I like that. That's really good.

Ron Tomlian:

So it's about being genuinely interested, which requires you to talk to people talk to the people that you think you might be able to help. Finding out what's going on finding out what their needs are, and finding out what the opportunities for collaboration are.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, great

Ron Tomlian:

With that organisation, and that requires a willingness to learn not only about what that organisation is about and how we could help, but sometimes we get it wrong. How can we learn from the mistakes we've made in the past?

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

How can we learn from the way the customer doesn't want it done?

Brenton Gowland:

Yep.

Ron Tomlian:

So that purposeful curiosity is the first element, I think of the right BD mindset.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, that's great. And look, I might just add that if you are a CEO, or executive listening to this, this also speaks about the qualities you should be looking in people that you employ to do business development. Because your business development, people will if they're pushy, they don't just create a bad reputation for themselves. They create a bad reputation for your company.

Ron Tomlian:

Absolutely. The people who are out there are representing your brand, your company, and they are forming your reputation, whether you like it or not.

Brenton Gowland:

And look, I'll be honest, I've had people about me in the past, say, Oh, I wouldn't do it with Brenton because he tries to sell too hard. Now, that's from when I was a bit younger and learning the ropes and all that kind of jazz. And I think I've matured, and you've learned that it doesn't work that well. Yes, I still have my moments everyone does we have to as you was saying be willing to learn. That's part of the curiosity. So having a curiosity about yourself and how you can develop, and that might be another part of the mindset is having an ability to be self aware and to actually develop yourself over time.

Ron Tomlian:

I think that's critical.

Brenton Gowland:

Self awareness is massive about having the right mindset. And that comes down to, that wasn't even one of the intended points I was gonna say. But that comes down to being in a room and being self aware of yourself and understanding where other people are at. So that's a massive thing to have the right mindset actually being self aware. But, again, as we go through these things, these are the things I'd be looking for in a new employee. But one thing I was gonna say that I've learned over time is incredibly important. So the second thing now, this is the second thing, even though I threw in one part A, or B, or whatever you like to call it is detachment.

Ron Tomlian:

Oh, no, wait a second detachment. That sounds like you don't want to be involved with your customers.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, that's not what I'm talking about.

Ron Tomlian:

Okay, tell me more.

Brenton Gowland:

It's about yes having the curiosity. But let's say there is a huge amount of pressure coming from the business, wow, our sales are down, we got to bring it up, guys sales team, you've got to get out there Mr. BD person, we need to get sales. And if you carry that pressure into a meeting with someone, and that's ticking through you, you are going to give a very bad impression. Remember how you said CEOs can smell desperation?

Ron Tomlian:

Absolutely.

Brenton Gowland:

So you have to be able to, and it took me years to really start to get this and actually start to be able to do it. But I would literally turn my mind off to all that pressure in the background. And it comes down to Yes, curiosity, I would just wrap myself in being interested in that business. And I think you need to be able to not bring, it's like saying, If you come to work, you get to choose your attitude, right? I don't bring all my problems to work well, I'm not going to bring all my problems and pressures to having a meeting with a potential client. Because if you do, you will not give the right impression, and you will make people think you're only interested in a sale. And that's going to turn people away.

Ron Tomlian:

Of course, because people their interaction, they can sense that desperation sense that sense of I'm not really interested in what you're talking about. I'm only interested in getting to the bit where I get to tell you about me.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

It doesn't work.

Brenton Gowland:

So that detachment is literally turning off everything else other than that client who's right in front of you and being able to beat but then it goes a little bit further, let's say you've only got two, three deals in the pipeline. And those deals then become really, really important to you to the point of sometimes desperation, because you know how someone can just string something on for such a long time.

Ron Tomlian:

An attachment to the result.

Brenton Gowland:

Correct. And you get emotionally involved. So if they're not responding, it actually changes your mood with everyone else. Oh, my gosh, they're not responding to my calls. They're this, they're that. But if you can remain detached, and not let that affect you. You go on about your other work, well, they're not responding, that's where they're at. So we can do everything we can do. But that's all we can do. And then when they do eventually get in contact with you, maybe there's been all sorts of stuff going on, or maybe they aren't interested. But it enables you to be much more pragmatic, and actually to hear what they say if you're not so wrapped up in that result. Because otherwise, you'll keep asking questions like when are we going to close this deal? When are we going to do this? Other than responding to what they're really interested in?

Ron Tomlian:

And when it's not right, the talking about emotion not being attached to it. Accepting that it may be you know, I'm talking to somebody who we can't help.

Brenton Gowland:

Yep. And listen, it's really interesting if we've got Bill Caskey on the show next week, like, I've listened to the Advanced Selling Podcast for years, and then I've been in a coaching group with Bill, and they talk episode on episode an episode about detachment. So it's a it's a really big topic. And we might ask Bill, a little bit about detachment next week, or in the next fortnight.

Ron Tomlian:

I'd love to hear his perspective on that.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. Great. So that's the next one. So we've got purposeful curiosity. We've thrown in self awareness, and we've put in detachment for the right mindset. What else is there?

Ron Tomlian:

I think, having the perspective or the attitude that I want to actually help now that leads to genuine curiosity because of purposeful curiosity, because to be able to help, you need to find out what the problem is, but coming in with I don't want to sell, I want to help this organisation and accepting that sometimes you can't help them.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

What you're providing the resource that or the service that you're suggesting, isn't going to work for this organisation. And then detachment allows you to be resilient and say, Okay, I can walk away from that, because I don't think we can actually help them.

Brenton Gowland:

But here's a little caveat on that. Right. And I know this come from you and I having a conversation earlier. But if your business can't help them, maybe you still can, because givers get. So I know you had, and I'm being really specifically here had a couple of examples we talked about when we had our coffee before we started this podcast. What were your examples?

Ron Tomlian:

It's a little bit of a naff example but the best one that I can think of is in the old Miracle on 34th Street.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

Edmund Quinn was playing Santa Claus.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, great.

Ron Tomlian:

And he was almost fired. Because in working for Macy's, he was suggesting to people who are looking to get particular products.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

That Gimbels, their major competitor had it a better range or better price or whatever. So he was directing people to not buy it and Macy's buy it at Gimbels, because it would help them.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

He almost got fired for that. And a famous scene, where the floor manager is about to go and sack him. And the customer comes up and said, I will always shop at Macy's from now on, because your Santa Claus gave me some great information about Gimbels. I am loyal to this organisation from now on.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

And that's what it's all about is building trust.

Brenton Gowland:

That happened to me in another business I was in we had a client who wanted us to do a piece of research work. And we were an advertising agency. And we had this juxtaposition of, well, we could do that, outsource it, take some cream on top and whatever. But we ultimately decided, no, we're going to send them to the right people. And this client actually got mad at us because they wanted us to do the work. And we said, look, you're gonna get a much cheaper option if you go here, these guys are the experts. We'd be kidding if we said we're the experts in research, because we use their research, that we don't go out and do the research, we could do an okay kind of workaround job, but these guys are going to give you exactly what they want. And so we push them down that road, and they use them. But then they ended up bringing us all their branding and their web and all sorts of stuff. There wasn't even a question of using anyone else. And I honestly believe it's because we did the right thing. And we help them find the right people. And I can think of lots of examples like that, where you might not be in a position where you can help that particular client, but you can send them somewhere where they can help them.

Ron Tomlian:

And so they come back to you next time to find out where they should go. And sometimes there will be you.

Brenton Gowland:

Yep.

Ron Tomlian:

I mean, that, quite frankly, is the basis of the whole challenger sales concept.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

So you are not simply accepting everything that comes your way you're challenging your customer to think about things.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

And to my way of thinking that is that builds genuine relationship.

Brenton Gowland:

Exactly. And that then has dividends that pays for years. And that kind of speaks into the next point, which is knowing when to let go, because as that old Kenny Rogers song about the gambler. And whats those words, know when to hold them know when to fold them know when to walk away and know when to run

Ron Tomlian:

Yes. God. Tell you what, that that's going back a few years.

Brenton Gowland:

Oh, actually, to be honest, there's a pub in Adelaide that's called Shotgun Willies, which is based on Willie Nelson, and they play all that music now. So you got 20 year olds singing that song.

Ron Tomlian:

My son was doing that on Saturday night last.

Brenton Gowland:

So it's really interesting as this is a digression. But it's actually interesting to see a few bars that are really playing that old school music in that country music and now you got all these young people starting to sing it, and like how do you know that?

Ron Tomlian:

Eventually, Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin will be back. I've got every confidence.

Brenton Gowland:

Everything does loops. I think they're already still here. Every karaoke bar around the world plays them more than anything else.

Ron Tomlian:

On thank God for that.

Brenton Gowland:

But boy, we're getting off topic.

Ron Tomlian:

Yep.

Brenton Gowland:

So knowing when to let go is so vitally important one for having the right mindset. Because if if you flog a dead horse, you know, as per that saying, You're not going to get anywhere, you're going to burn a lot of time, and you're potentially going to destroy relationships.

Ron Tomlian:

Destroy trust, if you're trying to fit a round peg in a square hole. Just to make a sale.

Brenton Gowland:

But to your point earlier, how good would it be to be able to recognise as early as possible, I don't think we can help you. But I think if you talk to this person, this person and this person, you're going to have a really fair chance of finding what you're looking for that client all of a sudden loves you, the person you send them to says thank you very much for the referral. I'll give you another one later. But it's this principle that I heard a long while ago, which I love. And it's this simple. Give give, give, ask, right. So you can give give give you get money in the goodwill bank, and then enables you to be able to ask for things from people when you need them, hey, I need an introduction to x because I really believe we can help them in the back of your head, you know that you've sent this person a couple of referrals or you've given them the right information, you build a relationship where you've got now that level of trust where you can ask for things.

Ron Tomlian:

And you know, that goes into the networking side of things as well. Never expect that someone's going to when you when you're contacting them is just going to because you've met, they've met you that they're going to want to do business with you.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

But if you can give something useful to them, you can point them in a direction that might not have anything to do with you making a sale, then you've got some goodwill in the bank.

Brenton Gowland:

100%. So that then brings us to maybe the most important point of all Ron, which is?

Ron Tomlian:

Persistence.

Brenton Gowland:

Tell us about that.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, you're going to get knocked back for a couple of reasons. One, if you're in that position of sales or business development, some people just don't want to deal with you.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

I think the other thing too is you're going to if you're asking a lot of people, or you're talking to a lot of people, some of them will be able to use your service.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

At some point in time, some won't. They never will. Or you haven't. You haven't got them at the right time where they need your service.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

Don't take it personally, that's the testament, but be willing to continue looking for the right people, or be willing to look for people who need the solution that you provide. And that means, you know, turning over a lot of rocks, asking a lot of questions, talking to a lot of people. And that that requires persistence. And it helps to have that detachment. It's not a personal thing. They're not saying no, because they're not like me, which I've seen salespeople feel, well, I can't keep doing this, because people don't like me. No, it's just that you haven't provided the right solution for them. And being willing to learn means that you are willing to find out what people are looking for the type of person or type of organisation, that has a need for your products or services, you can start being more focused about who you talk to. But at the end of the day, you've got to be persistent.

Brenton Gowland:

And persistence will do a few things. Like you're saying, You need to be able to talk to a lot of people to get results. Business Development is a numbers game. But persistence will help you really reinforce this mindset and your ability, because the more you're detached, the more you know when to let go, the more you expand your curiosity, you're going to develop. And this comes down to networking, in a sense, both a reputation and a network around you that are going to help you because you're doing all the right things. You're not coming in as the arrogant salesperson. Unfortunately, I hate saying this, but there's plenty of people I know that present like that. And I know that's because they're trying to get a sale because I know one guy I'm not gonna say obviously anything about who he is, but really presents in an arrogant way when he comes across with sales, but you get to know him. He's a lovely person. That is because he's been driven by a, I've got to get things done by the right amount of time, you know, so the kind of person who will block anyone out and just go for one person and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, don't like it. But having the right mindset, being persistent and just driving on with this, you develop a real ability around you to reduce the amount of time it takes to find a qualified lead.

Ron Tomlian:

So just summarising.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

Purposeful curiosity.

Brenton Gowland:

Yep.

Ron Tomlian:

Detachment.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

Self awareness.

Brenton Gowland:

Yes.

Ron Tomlian:

Which I think is a great skill, wanting to actually help the customer knowing when to let go and persistence. Now there are five best attributes of a business development mindset. But that's only our opinion.

Brenton Gowland:

Correct.

Ron Tomlian:

I'd love to hear if we've missed something out. If people disagree with any of those points.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

Or whether they've got new ideas.

Brenton Gowland:

One thing I'm definitely sure of, we've missed some things out.

Ron Tomlian:

I'm sure we have.

Brenton Gowland:

This is a general overview. But to your point, we've had a couple of people call lately and message us. And that started to grow. And we really liked that involvement. But we would love to hear from you like Ron's saying. What your thoughts if there's any tricks, you've learned that you think this has really helped me with my thinking. Because any kind of professional or skill, we've talked about business strategy we've talked about, and you know, business strategy is an interesting one. Because everything you do when you're trying to develop a strategy is creating a framework to think properly, to create the right mindset to develop that strategy. And what we're talking about here is developing the right mindset to put into practice all the things we've just talked about in driving business development. So it's so important to get your mind right to be able to get results. And I'm sure there's more to learn. And I'm sure we're going to hear some of that from our next guest in the next two weeks. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this Bill Caskey. I've been listening to their podcast for years and had a great deal of involvement with the coaching that they run. So we have people from all around the world coming together and coaching each other. So that's and that's around sales training. So that's fantastic. So we look forward to that.

Ron Tomlian:

And on that note.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian:

It's goodbye from me.

Brenton Gowland:

And it's goodbye from me. We hope you have a great fortnight and until next time, see you later.