Business Builders Podcast

The importance of mentors

March 25, 2021 Brenton Gowland & Ron Tomlian Season 1 Episode 3
Business Builders Podcast
The importance of mentors
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In today's episode our hosts Brenton Gowland and Ron Tomlian take a topic suggestion from Kevin DeCean to talk about the importance of mentors in our professional development.

Some of the topics covered include: 

  • Why mentoring is so important
  • The roles that mentors played in our host's professional development
  • Why limit yourself to one mentor at a time?
  • High performing sports people have coaches, high performing CEO's have mentors
  • The key reasons business people have mentors

The Business Builders Podcast is brought to you by SA Business Builders and Nucleus – Creative Agency.

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Specialising in growing business through brand, digital, video, web, print, campaigns and marketing.

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Brenton Gowland:

Today on Business Builders, we're discussing the importance of mentors. Ron, my co host makes a retraction about a comment he made in a previous podcast, and we give you an expert review on the new Justice League Snyder cut. So we hope you enjoyed Business Builders podcast, episode number three. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We're your hosts. I'm Brenton Gowland,

Ron Tomlian:

and I'm Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland:

So, Ron, we have had some good reaction to the first podcasts that we've done two of them so far. Now we're on to our third. And we've had our first official event for SA Business Builders for the year. So have you heard much about the podcast from the people in the groups we've been talking to?

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, I've had some pretty positive reaction to the type and the format of the podcast, I have had one comment that forced me into a retraction.

Brenton Gowland:

A retraction Ron?

Ron Tomlian:

Yes. When I said that my voice wasn't for radio. And my family wouldn't agree that it was I had a very strong reaction from his son, who took great offence, because after the first podcast, he listened to it, and told me that I was a smooth cat. So without the references to the 1960s, no 1950s hippies, I would say, I'll take that as a compliment. So yeah, maybe I do have a voice for radio and certainly my family's backing me on that one.

Brenton Gowland:

Oh, you are a smooth cat Ron. If I've ever heard one is definitely you. But it just does prove that you have to be a little bit careful with the things you try to say to be humorous, doesn't it?

Ron Tomlian:

It does, it does?

Brenton Gowland:

You know? I guess you just got to be a bit sensitive with humour. Don't we? Typically where families are involved Ron.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, I think you've also got to be recognised that human doesn't always hit the mark when you wanted to. But you've got to keep trying.

Brenton Gowland:

That's, that's true. Indeed. And what else has been going on? Since we've done the last podcast? What do you been up to?

Ron Tomlian:

Oh, I've just been doing the the usual grind did actually see the first couple of hours of the Jacks, no, Zack Snyder, Justice League movie. It's interesting because I thought the the darkness of the first one was a bit depressing. Was it the Josh Whedon version?

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, the Josh Whedon version.

Ron Tomlian:

This one's a bit darker. But it's it's more inspiring, I think. I think he's done a fantastic job of telling an even better story.

Brenton Gowland:

Well he has I gotta say I've watched the whole four hours and I struggled to start with because he's built the thing with in a four by three frame. So you've got these black lines down the side of the screen and I did everything I could try to do to try and get rid of it but I couldn't. But I kept reading reviews. And I thought I got to watch this thing. And yeah, you get used to the four by three aspect ratio, but the movie is great. And it kind of hails back to me for like, I liked the original you know that Superman movie that he re-invented? What was it called? Man of steel? Yep, I thought that was really dark and cool. And whatever else I knew got some interesting reviews, but this was the same I like that dark grungy feel.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, I think we'll look back in history and say why did we even have the first one but you know, that's, that's Hollywood for you?

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. But it's so good. Because I get to get the box, well, not the box office. Obviously Netflix twice, they get the double dip. But that actually wasn't Netflix.

Ron Tomlian:

Now it's HBO max in the United States and Binge and here.

Brenton Gowland:

They crushed it apparently, crashed the service doesn't surprise me. That's really interesting. So it's got a big following. I've always been a superman fan. I admit it. He was one of my heroes when I was a kid. What do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be Superman.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of broken bones around the place from that from that I think.

Brenton Gowland:

Now, interestingly enough, our topic for this week is the importance of mentors. So heroes in a sense, and that's come from one of our listeners, Kevin DeCean and who runs the SA business development managers network. It's it's a bit hard to say that. I want to try to say that three times quickly, but Kevin said, I'd really like to hear you guys talk on the importance of mentors. And actually, funnily enough, Ron, you've been my mentor for a couple of years. So what is your view on the importance of mentors just before we get into the topic?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, you've always got to take something like this with a grain of salt when someone has a vested interest and,

Brenton Gowland:

Oh, yes.

Ron Tomlian:

and I make money out of being a mentor for people. But by the same token, I do it mainly because I believe in why it's so important. And to me, the importance of mentoring in first and foremost is the opportunity to get a different perspective, an external perspective. And, that's what's something that no one, or that you can't give yourself, you can never have the perspective of someone else. And I always feel that in terms of information and knowledge, and wisdom, it's important to triangulate. And what I mean by that is, you need to get different sources to be able to reference, what you're saying in the end the the validity of what you're thinking and saying. And under those circumstances, the only way you can do it is by going outside yourself and asking other people. Now, you can do that in an informal sense. And I think a lot of times, people look for informal mentors,

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah okay.

Ron Tomlian:

And there's, I think that's probably a good idea. I've done that myself over the years. But having someone that you can continually refer back to, if you like, watching you over the arc of your career, over the arc of your journey of life, is it's important to be able to reference back to that person and see where you are just to have some type of stabilising influence in your life. So apart from external perspective, the opportunity to have a sounding board, you know, so often we get so caught up in our own thoughts and our own feelings. And even if you meditate, being able to externalise some of the ideas that you have with someone else and get their feedback on that, I think is incredibly important. Because you know, just the process of talking through an issue, I often find that in the one to ones I have with people, they start discussing a challenge or an opportunity that they have. And before long, they've solved the problem themselves.

Brenton Gowland:

Cool. I think this is a big topic. I know you've got a lot to say on it. And yeah, in a sense, you do have a vested interest. But that's fine, because I think you come from a view of actually mentoring people. So you get to see a gamut of different situations. I've come from a view of really looking for a mentor and mentors have really helped be foundational for me, as I've developed my business skills. So from my point of view, it's really interesting, because I see mentors as vital. Because for me that being that link between what I don't know, and learning what I don't know, or you know, there's that saying that you don't know what you know, to, you know. When you've got a mentor, they can actually help guide you in those areas where you need the most help. So I think this is going to be a really interesting discussion. But before we get into it, we really need to just talk a little bit about our sponsors, don't we Ron?

Ron Tomlian:

Oh we do. Always, always!

Brenton Gowland:

I think this is a topic that's close to both of our hearts. And I think a lot of other people as we get into this, but look, good stories inspire people Ron. We're all wired to respond to stories that resonate with us, and that make us feel something. And if you're building your brand, if you're selling your products, if you're educating your market, if you're inspiring community change, or trying to win new customers or simply marketing your services, your success is often based on how you tell your story.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, the truth of matter is, in my opinion, whether it's leadership or organisations or what have you talking about communication is always done by stories. And if you are clear and articulate about your story, you've got a much better chance of breaking through all the guff that's out there, and getting into people's heads. So storytelling is an incredibly important aspect of communication.

Brenton Gowland:

Yep. And certainly during COVID-19 that's really pushed or during the pandemic in 2020. It's really pushed a lot of companies to really start looking at how do we tell our stories properly. Now, our sponsor is Nucleus and they are, they're really experts, and they specialise in helping businesses develop their story, because often the story is within the company, but you need someone from an external perspective, even like you were talking about with mentoring Ron to come and ask the right questions. So you can get that story out and then communicate it to the right audience through brand work, digital work, print, video, campaigns, web, marketing in the light. So if you need help developing and telling your story, please visit our sponsor Nucleus at nucleus.com.au and see how they can help you. So I think it's time to get into our topic, Ron. Fantastic. So I want to start with a quick question. Why is, I mean, we've kind of touched on it, but why is mentoring so important to people? Why does it make a difference?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, I think I've already highlighted or touched on a few things, but it comes down to challenging people. And do you have someone challenges you? Do you have someone who will ask you and you quite rightly pointed out that good mentors use questions rather than answers to challenge you about what you're doing and what you're thinking, and that you know, the whole basis, that Socratic method of learning of teaching people. What method? The Socratic, Socrates.

Brenton Gowland:

Right oh. Do you want to explain that to people who don't know, because I don't know what that is?

Ron Tomlian:

Okay. So it very simply, it's I don't teach people, I ask them questions. And they learn, by thinking about the questions that I've asked them. That's the socratic method.

Brenton Gowland:

Right and they come to their own conclusions.

Ron Tomlian:

Yes. So if you've got someone who is asking you questions, challenging you, on your way of thinking, getting you to think beyond your limitations at the moment, are you limited thinking at the moment, you've got a much better chance of being broader in the way you look at opportunities and solve the problems that are in front of you?

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, that's interesting, it kind of comes to that. It's a very simple saying, You catch someone a fish, they get to eat once, but if you teach them how to fish they can eat for life, right? So if you can ask the right questions, if you can lead people in the right direction, put the resources in front of them that they require, it's going to actually help them learn and gain a new perspective and progress as a business person. I know that for myself, mentors have always well, they became so important when I started running my business because I didn't really have a clue. Like To be honest, I was a very good at being a trades person. So I was a graphic designer come marketer, and started running businesses and employing people. And I had to make it I realised at some point, I had to make a transition from being the worker to being the boss, and then realising it took a little while, but then realising what people actually required from me, it was a completely different role. And that was really only achieved with me through talking to people who were running businesses, and then actually finding mentors to actually give me instruction to be able to take the business forward. So they were literally vital. And I can tell you, this business would not be here, if I didn't have mentors along the way.

Ron Tomlian:

Well, this is the interesting thing. And I think it's becoming increasingly important for people to recognise that we don't all learn the same way. And we rarely learn from the standard academic approach. It provides great frameworks, and I'm not discounting the importance of that. But oftentimes, people learn by doing and being challenged and questioned. And under those circumstances, that the traditional approach isn't going to be enough, especially in things like the soft skills associated with leadership. Understanding people, you can come up with academic constructs and models and so on. But actually internalising that comes from the the ability to talk to other people and understand the world around you through a dialogue. And it's difficult to get in anything but a discussion with someone like a mentor.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. So what's your origin story? Like, you know, you started out in business, you know, obviously working for someone as a young man, and then now you're coaching people. So what part did mentors play along your journey?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, interestingly, I didn't formalise any mentoring relationships. But I had a number of mentors, people who took an interest in my career, my development, and gave me the opportunity to, how would you put it? Gave me the opportunity to think more critically about the path that I was on? I mean, I started off as an engineer, funnily enough,

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, cool.

Ron Tomlian:

Yeah. I found out that I actually enjoyed the interaction with other people more than the calculation and the attention to detail that's required necessarily in engineering,

Brenton Gowland:

You know, there's going to be a shortage of engineers in Adelaide? You might want to go back to it.

Ron Tomlian:

You know, that was, it was quite a while ago. So I've done well in in my chosen path of dealing more with understanding people, both in marketing and then in leadership roles later on. Yeah. So the the opportunity to take important decisions, and take them to other people and discuss those took the decision out of my head and into a framework where I could be challenged and challenge other people in their thinking. A much more robu t decision was made as a resu t, and I was much more comm tted to that decision. Then just ruminating about the deci ion in my head for ages as some eople often do. I think it's mportant to get those ideas out there and be able to discu s those with someone you respe t and trust, trust being an im ortant element of that, becau e for in order for those discu sions to be really robust, you h ve to make yourself vulne able. And you don't do that ith someone you don't trust

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, that's true. And that, that brings us to another question. Yeah, there's a lot of negative views on mentors. I know that when I went to business networking events, when I was starting my business, I always met these people that were like, Hey, I'm a business coach, or I'm this or I'm a that and you know, I, I'll give you success coaching, I'll make your business, whatever. And I remember looking at these people thinking, but what have you done with your life? And what do you I didn't know, I was like, what right? Do you have to say this to me. And so I was always very cautious of these people who were business coaches, and so forth. And it wasn't until I actually met someone I trusted. And that recommended me to someone that I actually started going, Wow, there is value in this with the right person. But in those early days, I did not trust the idea of a coach or a mentor.

Ron Tomlian:

Look, I think, even especially nowadays, what I've seen in last 15 years, in particular, the rise of the concept of business coaches, life coaches, you know, people to support you, I think it's it's great that this is being discussed. But unfortunately, there's a lot of people have jumped on the bandwagon. And a lot of people out there who will claim to be able to help you improve your performance give you a better perspective, I really question whether some people have got the one that perspective and, and the experience. And it's not all about experience, but it has to be somewhat about experience, to be able to help people genuinely help people rather than this is a business for me, and I'm going to get some clients on board. And if it helps them, it helps them if it doesn't, it doesn't. that's their problem.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. Well, I certainly know that, you know, you really, the next episode we're gonna do, I think, is on finding a mentor. Because I think that's really important, because I do think there's people out there who are coaching that I've seen that I don't think are qualified to coach. You know, I, we can talk about what the qualifications are for coaching. But I look for someone who's done, or is smarter than me in a certain area, like my origin story is, there was actually one guy that used to encourage me, and he was a videographer. And he started a business. And he encouraged me to start my business was a guy named Simon Malcolm. And he's a great guy. And he encouraged me to set up my own personal board back in the beginning. And that was to meet with and find people that, you know, were business leaders who I could meet with regularly for a coffee, say, once a month, just to ask them questions. And these were the people I was lucky enough to meet, because I used to, you know, go to this community group where there were CEOs and different people involved, they were I found that they were so happy to share with me about their experiences, because when they started talking, so I'd meet with a CEO of a certain company, I'd meet with, you know, a manager of a different company, and I had about five of them that I met with, and they would always share all sorts of different things that was so beneficial to me. And I would just ask questions about their journey, how they got to where they are, what they did what they did in this situation that I was in, and you find that these people actually really want to help you because they, that some of these people get genuinely excited about helping someone get a business off the ground, because it's an exciting thing, helps the economy employs people, etc, etc. So, I found that it was just so beneficial for me to have this right group of people, that it was people I knew people I already had known that had, you know, the skills that I wanted to tap into, it's when you move on later that you meaning people in general business that you don't really know who they are, or what their qualifications are, that you really got to, I think, have your wits about you and, and understand what it is you're looking for.

Ron Tomlian:

And you bring up an important point in all that, that people often talk about having a mentor. And I think there's nothing wrong with with relying on one person. But why limit yourself. having different perspectives is incredibly important. And we already talked about how you can only get that through other people. So why only have one mentor, why not have a number. And as you go through life, I think it's important to refresh and look at what what you want to do next. So that one of the important things about having a mentor is why do you want to have a mentor? Being able to answer that question for yourself?

Brenton Gowland:

That's really true. And on that point of having multiple mentors. There's also the question of versus do I have a paid mentor like and that becomes a big thing for a lot of people. But I think that if you we had a you know a podcast on networking a while back and if you Choose the right people for your network, there should be people you can call on that can give you insights in views and guidance on on certain subjects that are, you know, helpful and what you want to learn. I think if you want to learn something specific, like, you know, obviously, I employed you as my mentor, because I wanted to start to understand a lot more about governance of a business, how to run different aspects of a business. And that was very, very helpful. And it has been helpful in being involved with yourself in getting that kind of advice in also from your network. But I get equal and similar value in other places from people who are just part of my network.

Ron Tomlian:

And that's why I say, understand what you're trying to achieve. Paid mentors will most likely hold you more accountable. I mean, that's what you're paying me for is to, to hold your feet to the fire, and challenge you more robustly. Doesn't mean you can't get that from other people in an informal basis, but you're more likely to be responsive to the the suggestions or the discussions we have, because you're paying for it. And quite frankly, you also are much more likely to be be doing this on a more regular basis. And you I think, with informal mentors, you have to respect the fact that they're doing it for free. So you tend not to bother them too much. Whereas, we're always on the phone, aren't we Brenton.

Brenton Gowland:

That's true. And look, do you know what's

Ron Tomlian:

That's a that's a topic unto itself. interesting, I talk with a lot of CEOs and other people in the work that I do. And I find that high performing CEOs, people who are running large corporations, they are 97% likely to have one two or three different mentors that they actually have, professionally working with them. And the other interesting thing is people in the match, I'm going to say it the way I see it in the lower echelons of the business who, uh, you know, just workers or whatever, or even managers, you know, 90% unlikely to have a mentor. And as we've discussed, I'm doing a bit of a study on, you know, business networking, one of the things that people say, and I asked a question about, you know, what would you say to yourself, your younger self, if you had the opportunity to jump in a time machine and go back in time? What would you say to your younger self about improving,

Brenton Gowland:

Oh, yeah. and literally, every single person has basically said,

Ron Tomlian:

And there's a lot to consider in that too. around, you know, business networking, start younger, I would have started when I was in uni, I would have started when I was 18, I would have found a mentor. And I have so many people who are, you know, in that bracket of, you know, 20 to 30, who ask me for advice or whatever else in the very first thing I'll say to them is, you need to get a mentor and you

Brenton Gowland:

But the thing is, like, you know, and the need to pay them. Because you need to get into that pattern. So but then it's about finding the right person, which I won't get into that, because we'll talk about that next time. saying that always came up for me, which actually got me thinking about this was sports, people all have coaches, all the high performing sports, people have coaches, you know, people who are trying to do anything with a sports career have a coach. So why shouldn't business people have a coach?

Ron Tomlian:

And the answer is, it's it hasn't been paid of the culture. And it certainly is, you're absolutely right, when you get up to the higher levels of business is, especially in large organisations, they wouldn't let you do what you do without somebody guiding you and performing. Most large organisations have mentoring programmes internally, or supply business coaches, because they know the importance of it. Unfortunately, it's not part of the entrepreneurial business environment, although I think it is becoming so.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, agreed. I think, well, the other thing is, I just want to make a comment on that as well. I know that companies have like that. Some of them have that internal mentoring thing, but I also think it's valuable to have a mentor outside of your company who can give you a different perspective.

Ron Tomlian:

Again, why do you want the mentor? I mean, an internal mentor is going to be able to guide you, presumably through the complexities of a particular organisation which can be quite onerous, and external mentor is going to provide you with an external perspective. I was just talking to someone yesterday. And they were talking about the fact that when they left an organisation after many years, I had this experience, it felt like they were waking up. They thought this, this organisation was the centre of the universe. And I think when you get into larger organisations, there is a bit of a feeling of self importance or organisational importance that doesn't necessarily exist outside that organisation. In fact, people can be quite derogatory about a lack of inputs of that organisation when you think it's the centre of the universe. So having an external perspective, having someone outside who can ground you, I think is incredibly important.

Brenton Gowland:

I think it's about actually helping you manage relationships within that larger organisation. Because I think sometimes the external perspective is just so important because they don't have the biases of people within the company. And if they can give you ways of, you know, managing relationships and being diplomatic and, you know, Getting to Yes, as that book talks about, in negotiations, it's, it's really beneficial, it's beneficial to have that ear because it can also ground you can keep it temper under control, it can keep you positive, there's just a raft of things. And look, we, obviously we can talk about this forever, but we got to start wrapping up because we've gone a bit overtime here. So just, if I can ask in, coming to an end, you know, why do you think, what's the key reason you think, business people should have a mentor?

Ron Tomlian:

Well, I'm just gonna say what I've said before, I think it's about external perspective outside yourself. And in some cases, outside your organisation, that is someone to challenge you, someone that you can confide in and be your sounding board. And someone who can give you genuine, honest feedback about yourself. Because once again, I know with, when I go out for a coffee, I always walk away with a joker smile, it's you know, chocolate Joker smile. If my wife wasn't there, I'd walk around like that all day. Now, unless I've got a mirror in front of me all the time. I don't know about those sorts of things. And really the mirror that's in front of you, often, in terms of the way you're behaving, and so on can be that mentor. So having, having an external mirror is an important thing.

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah. And for me, it's it's about how to progress and particularly about learning the things that I don't know yet, because in businesses, so many things to learn, and so much to understand. So for me, it's about, you know, having conduits to actually understand the things I need to understand and how to navigate complex relationships and how to deliver best service to clients and how to progress in you know, my own self, and how to keep balance. Because you know, that's another thing. It's like, when you run your own business, and so forth, you can easily get out of balance with you know, the amount that you have to work, and just having that voice in your head about keeping, you know, healthy work life balance, or at least finding some way to have that, that mental does that as well, they challenge you on that if they go, you've challenged me on that a number of times. So I know that helps.

Ron Tomlian:

I hope successfully.

Brenton Gowland:

Well, we're getting there aren't we. Anyway, look, that's a good discussion. Next time, we're going to talk about how to find the right mentor. And I think we could pick you know, any one of these kind of key points that have come up and do a whole episode on this. Because mentoring, so important in seeing people develop and people progress. And, you know, back to that sports person comment, sports, people always have coaches to continually improve. And I think if business people want to continually improve, they need mentors and coaches and so forth, as well. So we might just pull it up there, I think and so might be worth mentioning, our sponsoring in that is Nucleus. So please make sure you check them out at www.nucleus.com.au. They're experts, as we said earlier in helping you tell your story about your business in order to help you grow your business.

Ron Tomlian:

Yes. And I want to reiterate that if people have ideas for topics we could cover that would help them in building their businesses. Please just contact Brenton or I. Yeah. And as you've seen today, somebody came up with an idea. We're quite responsive to those suggestions. So we'd like some feedback. What would you like us to talk about?

Brenton Gowland:

Yeah, so thank you, Kevin DeCean for the topic for today. And we've got some other topics that have been suggested, as well. And as Ron said, just message us on LinkedIn. Or if you've got that details, send us your questions or your thoughts. And we'll also be interviewing people as we go along. So I think that's it for today Ron.

Ron Tomlian:

Okay, goodbye.

Brenton Gowland:

We went a bit over time, we're about 30 minutes. Oh, wow. We went off script didn't we!

Ron Tomlian:

Well, sometimes it's good to do that. So I'll see you next time, Brenton.

Brenton Gowland:

No worries. See you next time Ron. Bye for now.

Introduction
Reactions and Retractions
About today's topic
About our sponsor Nucleus
Why mentoring is so important
The role mentor's played in our host's development
Don't limit yourself to one mentor
High performers seek mentors
Key reasons business people have mentors
FInal thoughts
Sponsor Message
Invitation for topic suggestions
Wrap up