Give Me A Break

Hey Business Builders, have you ever felt overwhelmed by the relentless demands of the 'hustle culture'? In today's fast-paced world, the importance of taking meaningful breaks has never been more crucial. So, in this episode, we're emphasising how prioritising rest isn't just about relaxation—it's about rejuvenation, innovation, and, ultimately, better productivity.

Key Takeaways:

• The Necessity of Breaks: In a world where being "busy" is often celebrated, it's vital to understand the deeper implications of burnout and the need for genuine rest.
• Defining different types of breaks: Sustaining breaks are short, like weekends; rejuvenating breaks are a minimum of 2 weeks for full relaxation; micro-breaks are short afternoon periods away from routine.
• Common myths around not needing breaks: Some see it as a sign of weakness, but the body needs rest to recharge allostatic load and the mind needs breaks for creativity.
• Physical and mental health impacts: Without breaks one risks chronic stress, anxiety, burnout, addiction issues, and physical exhaustion from constant activation.
• Improved focus and problem-solving: Micro breaks refresh the mind so tasks take less time, and one can think more strategically with distance from daily routines.
• Developing empathy: Removing oneself from work pressures allows one to better understand others' challenges and concerns upon returning with less tunnel vision.
• Organisational benefits detailed: Reduced absenteeism, turnover, and improved productivity, engagement, decision-making and revenue in companies that pilot shorter work weeks and encourage breaks.
• Ron's Challenge to Listeners: Why it's essential to schedule deliberate breaks and how they can enhance your leadership and professional journey.
• Community Engagement: Engage with our Business Builders community to share, learn, and discuss best practices for integrating breaks into our busy lives.

So join us as we discuss our experiences, valuable lessons, and practical advice on the significance of taking breaks. Because when it comes to business and life, sometimes the best thing you can do is to pause, reflect, and recharge.

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Transcript

Brenton Gowland: 0:00

Hey there Business Builders ever felt like you're running on empty even when you're ticking all the boxes on your to do list today following our previous discussions about burnout, we're shining a spotlight on the power of taking a break, recognising when to step back, rejuvenate and refresh can make a world of difference in our performance and overall well being. So gear up for a dose of inspiration and actionable tips on embracing breaks as a strategic advantage in both business and life. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts, I am Brenton Gowland,

Ron Tomlian: 0:37

and I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland: 0:38

And if you've just joined us, we're doing a series on Life-Work balance. And that's what we do on the business builders podcast at the moment, we focus on series. So you'll have 10 episodes on maybe business strategy and 10 episodes on marketing. We like to really cover a topic in depth. And I think this topic is really, really important. And Ron, and I have been getting feedback from people that we've been talking to about how much this topic of Life-Work balance is important in people's lives right at the moment. And today, we're going to be talking about the importance of taking a break. And how did this one come about Ron?

Ron Tomlian: 1:16

Well, when we first started this series, you and I were talking about the fact that I prioritise taking a break in my life, because I found that if I don't, I'm not as effective. And that's really what we're going to be talking about today. One of the things that I've noticed in a lot of people in business in particular, is there's this sort of myth, I suppose that I can keep going indefinitely. I'm Superman, done the next day, Elon Musk, or whoever, no disrespect to Elon, and I don't need what other people need, I don't need to take a break. I don't need to prioritise myself. And it's a myth. And like all myths, we're going to debunk this one, because it is my way of thinking it's critical. So for business leaders in particular,

Brenton Gowland: 2:11

So today, we're the MythBusters,

Ron Tomlian: 2:12

We're the MythBusters. I'm not gonna grow a beard, and I'm not gonna glasses. But today, we're the Mythbusters.

Brenton Gowland: 2:19

I love those science, guys. I think that's great. So that's fantastic as we would well, as I was mentioning earlier, this topics really resonating with people at the moment. And I think the reason that resonates with other people is because it resonates with us. And in our pre chat, I was talking to Ron, for those of you who are listening about the fact that I'd had a couple of conversations with people who were asking you about the podcast, and this one person asked what is your podcast about I'm really interested in, I found myself explaining it in a way that makes sense of what we are as the business builders podcast. It's interesting how that happens over time, something distils within you. And I said to this person, and it was in a coffee shop, and they were one of the people who helped run the coffee shop. And I said that the business builders podcast, what is it all about? We are about looking at the business person behind the business, the business owner, the business leader, and about helping them be a fully rounded person and not falling apart. Because there is a tendency when someone starts a business as you were saying, people think they're heroes on the next Elon Musk, and they go down this road of wanting to emulate what they think, potentially is what you're supposed to do. I'm just assuming based on my own experience, but there comes a point where you crash as we were talking about with Dr. Samantha the other week, in the whole burnout cycle. But we are here the Business Builders podcast is here to work on helping people become fully rounded, to become a fully rounded business person. And the idea is if you build yourself if you work on yourself, and that means working on the technical skills, like becoming a better marketer, a better strategist, a better business leader, a better manager of people, all of those things, but also managing yourself because if you don't manage yourself, then you can't perform well in business. So I'd liked that when talking with this person in the coffee shop that we're here to help people be fully rounded. And when I said that, she was like, Alright, I'm gonna get my boss to listen to it. He really needs to listen to it. And I think that's interesting that, you know, employees and people behind the businesses recognise in their bosses that this particular person was kind of indicating that their boss was frazzled, and in a place where they needed to actually take care of themselves.

Ron Tomlian: 4:52

Yeah, and unfortunately, people do that without recognising it in themselves, because they don't take time away from the business. And that's what we're going to talk about today. What what what is break in the first place? What What am I mean by taking a break.

Brenton Gowland: 5:09

And just before we get into it, we want this to be interactive. Now, we have started a while back a LinkedIn page. And we've been getting a few requests. And we apologise if we've been getting to those requests slowly, but we're getting on top of it. Now we've just had a meeting about it. Look up business builders podcast, it's a group on LinkedIn and send us a request to become part of that group. Because if you want to be giving us feedback and get interactive with us, then that is the best way at the moment to talk with us to be part of that LinkedIn group. And we'd invite you to one subscribe to the podcast here. And now. And also to get on board that LinkedIn podcast group is called the Business Builders podcast, of course. So go to LinkedIn and check it out. And you'll hear from both Ron and myself and other members in that community. I think there's 83. Now, he has a couple of internationals in there.

Ron Tomlian: 6:03

That's what we want to hear. Yeah. So getting back to our topic, let's start by talking about what a break is. And to me, a break is a break in your routine. So people say, Well, I meditate, or I exercise, and all of those, I think are incredibly important. But that's part of your routine, or they should be part of your routine for improving your self care. And that should be part of what you do every day. And you know, talking about taking a break from the routine of your everyday.

Brenton Gowland: 6:36

So you know what's interesting about what you just said, there that meditation and other things about or taking care of your whole person, as we were talking about earlier, should be part of your routine, I have noticed that as people get older, like I've noticed this in my family, particularly my brother and others, is that they evolve. And all of a sudden things like meditation and self care and the why they become really, really important. And I think we mentioned a while back that when your health starts to stuff and then suffer, then it becomes a priority. And I think if you look at the way people progress, those things become important as people get older, because they become more necessary when they get older. So that to me says that, if we prioritise these things, like you're talking about taking a break earlier, or meditating earlier, than it has a longer term benefit.

Ron Tomlian: 7:26

Yeah, and let's be fair, that's the whole basis of the superannuation schemes, we say, look, you've got to put some money aside so that later on, you don't have to worry about money. It's the same with these type of things. My wife and I, many years ago, said, you know, we'd really like holidays that we were walking. So in order to continue to do that into our later lives, we better stay fit. So we're doing work now so that we can have benefits later on. But this is what we're talking about today. Don't leave it till later. And if there's one thing that really bugs me, when I'm talking to business leaders, and you say when was the last time you took a break? Oh, they say very proudly, oh, it's been seven years since I've had a real holiday. So that's something to be admired. And then he said, Well, when you're going to take a break, well, I don't know when that when I get some time, when I'm when I'm not so busy. Unfortunately, this is when they get into problems. This is when they start having chronic health issues, when they start having problems with addiction. This is when they start having problems with relationships. You don't want to get into those situations, you want to do something on a regular basis to prevent that from happening. And that's what we were talking about with Samantha a little while ago in terms of burnout. So taking a break is getting away from the routine. And to my way of thinking, two weeks, two weeks is the minimum that you should be talking about annually. I'm not talking about two weeks taking in two day lots, I'm talking about a two week break is the minimum. Personally, I believe, three weeks. And this is the reason I say that for a lot of business leaders. And I was there myself while ago, you take a let's say a four week break. The first week, you're coming down from the busyness of getting ready for your break. So you've just lost a week there, unfortunately, then you might have two weeks where you're relaxed, where you're not thinking that much about work. And in the week leading up to going back to work and your final week of your break. You're already thinking about going back to work. So really, in that four week break, you've only had two weeks. Okay? Now you take that down to two weeks. You're probably only got a couple of days in the middle where you're not thinking you're not activated by work. So my personal opinion, if you want a week off, you gotta take a two week buffer and other side of it.

Brenton Gowland: 10:01

So that's an interesting point that you make there. There's a few things that you've said that have stuck out to me. One is about business leaders proudly saying that I haven't had a break. And I've got no time and these kinds of things. I wonder whether those kinds of people actually know how to take a break. Is it proudly that they say that because I'll be honest with you, in the whole time that I was involved in running Nucleus, the advertising agency that I'm a director of the longest break I ever took was probably four days or a week in 15 years. Why is that? I don't think I know, or knew how to take a break. Because I didn't have a partner. I was fully focused on work. And if I had downtime, I'd be like, well, what am I going to do with it? I don't even know where to start. And I wonder because work had become a whole life. And you talk about the fact that people get into these habits or they go to, they might start drinking and all those kinds of things. Now, I was never an alcoholic. I didn't start drinking till I was in my 30s. No might surprise you. But I was never interested in it didn't like wine. But someone someone

Ron Tomlian: 11:12

multiracial, you may made up for that since

Brenton Gowland: 11:15

my mother actually made me start drinking. When I was 29, she read a report by the CSIRO that red wine was good for your heart. So she basically force fed me red wine. Whenever I went around there for dinner. Good. I started liking it. But yeah, I never I think I've been, I think I've been under the weather like drunk three times in my entire life. Like, that's kind of the extent to which I drink. And there would have been accidental moments. But I did get into the habit of frequenting venues because other people were there. So a particular pub, you know, like cheers, where everyone knows your name, you go to that pub, and get business from those pubs and you tend to feel like that's part of your social circle. And it is, then I think, well, where would I go? I don't have a partner, I've only got work, I've got all these things I got a few weeks after Christmas, I'll do some pottering around and some DIY projects. But I just wonder how many business leaders are in that same position? Like, what would I do? And it might only be a few, I might have been a unique thing. But I'm not entirely sure whether what I'm saying is, are they proud about it, or they just not know how to be any different because they're so driven or worried about the fact they've got cash flow issues? And you know, all the things, I think

Ron Tomlian: 12:32

you're right, I think a lot of times people, their identity is caught up in the idea of I'm running this business, I own this business, and they're afraid or maybe ignorant of what it means to be away from what gives them their identity. And maybe we could do a podcast later on about is that really you? Because I would argue that's not but regardless of that, I think that there might be a fear factor. How do I have fun? I've, it's been so long since I've had a knee, you know, I don't know. But, you know, those sort of perspectives, I think, become ingrained? By being totally preoccupied with with your business activities.

Brenton Gowland: 13:19

Yeah. And I think there can be some fear involved as well, because I always used to think and be afraid of what will happen if I'm not here? And let me be blatantly honest. That means that I haven't set up the business correctly. Absolutely. Right. And sometimes you have to extend trust to your people to be able to go away, and it's okay to come back in this and things not done the way you would have done them because they might have done a better or they might have made mistakes. But either way, there's a learning going to be involved if you handle that properly.

Ron Tomlian: 13:47

Absolutely. Right. So let's talk about that. What are the benefits for the individual? And what are the benefits for the organisation of people taking breaks? Okay, and there are a number of benefits. I mean, in the first place. Let's talk about the individual. There are leadership benefits, there are personal mental health benefits. There are physical health benefits, and social health benefits from taking a break. Things like renewed creativity, breaks allow leaders to recharge foster creativity, and their innovative thinking because they're using their subconscious mind more, or not even using it. They're allowing their subconscious mind to come to the fore because they're not focusing on day to day activities. When you take a break, and especially when you travel, you're getting different perspectives, and allows you to think more about the long term the strategic. So that's a benefit for your leadership that comes from getting out of the routine of the every day. Here's one that most people don't even think about. Distance from work helps leaders relate better to other people and therefore, relate better to their team's needs. needs and concerns when they get back. I explained that a bit distance from work. Yeah. So it's about developing your empathy. Because you're not thinking about the tasks, you tend to be when you're on when you're taking a break, you tend to think more about relationships and people say the blinkers come off the blinkers come off from a strategic perspective, but also from a people's perspective. So that's, there's some benefits for your leadership in just taking a break. Then there's mental health when we talked about stress reduction, when we were talking with Samantha, and just preventing burnout and and lowering your stress levels, happens invariably, when you take a break, unless you're going with your mother in law sample. I use that advisedly. This is this is the one that we've talked about before with Allostatic. loads, yep, it improves decision making, because a rested mind makes better decisions and is less prone to errors. You know, we talked about that allostatic load that you are, yes, you're always switched on. But that's doesn't allow your subconscious to come to the fore when it needs to. And as a result, you take twice as long to make decisions, sometimes four times as long to make decisions. When you're under when you're under extreme stress. Taking a break is that circuit breaker for that. So you make better decisions when you get back on the job. And your your focus is that much more improved. Because time away can boost concentration and problem solving abilities upon return, because you're refreshed and his as I've spoken to you about this example, I used to take a week off over Christmas. And I would say during that week, I've got a whole bunch of tasks that I could do, I'd get into the holiday maybe extended two weeks, and I would never get those tasks done. Okay, so it was things like organising my files, that sort of thing. When I got back, I found that what would normally take me two or three days took me two or three hours. Interesting. And I couldn't figure out why that was the case. But I had so much more energy. So there's not only mental health benefits, there are physical health benefits because rest and recovery, regular breaks prevent physical exhaustion, and ageing, the bodies recover. And we've talked about life's not a marathon, it's a series of Sprint's any great athlete will tell you that if they're looking forward to an event or they're preparing for an event, they have to take breaks in order to be able to do a series of events, take breaks between those events. So they rest and then sprint, rest and then sprint.

Brenton Gowland: 17:48

So it's interesting what you're saying. A it's almost like the break becomes the distance from work thing that you were talking about. Yes. So

Ron Tomlian: 17:57

absence of routine, I suppose is the main thing.

Brenton Gowland: 18:00

Interesting. So I suffered anxiety when I was younger. And it was really I remember there was someone who came and talked to me about, well, when you start a business, are you prepared for this mentally? I'm like, What are you talking about? Because I was truly good as a consultant. I was a graphic designer who worked for different people built websites, did all sorts of things when I was in my 20s making good money. And then I started employing people. And this one guy came and talked to me about Are you sure that you're ready for the mental challenges? And what he was talking about was cashflow issues. I remember when I rented the first place I would, I would walk the streets at night because one minute I'd have$30,000 in the bank the next day, I'd have five minus five and never went minus thankfully, now it's much better. But there were those times when you'd see these big cash flow shifts, and I didn't get used to it didn't understand what really Cash Flow Planning was you'll learn all that as you go along when you start a business without, let's say, and I think a lot of people in this position, they don't do the MBA or they don't do the business studies before they start a business because they have a great idea. And the business studies come somewhere down the track. Because oh now I got to be a business leader. But anyway, my point was, he said, Are you ready mentally because the reason I was suffering anxiety is because I was getting used to all these new paradigms around me and cashflow issues and people issues and all these things. And I remember there was this one particular day, a friend of mine came to where I was working. And I remember my heart was racing, and I felt so overwhelmed with things and this person was like, Just come with me. We're going to the beach, and I went to the beach with them and everything went away. We just sat at the beach and had chat and the anxiety came down the heart rate came down all that kind of stuff. And I remember going back to the office and approaching my computer and I felt I felt it all just come back. And I felt my heart rate and I thought wow, this is actually a physical thing. And at that point, that's where I started taking these long walks around the neighbourhood and just going out and smelling the roses. That was, I think I was in my mid 30s, when I did that, and that just those little

Ron Tomlian: 20:13

micro breaks are talking about that

Brenton Gowland: 20:16

are really, really important for me to get that anxiety under control. And so, to put you in perspective, if you're listening, Ron spoke at the beginning about this topic about taking a break is something that, well, Ron taking holidays is what got us into talking about this, because I invariably had not taken breaks. And I was impressed with the fact that every three or so months were on and take a weekend off, we go away for a week. And I was like, wow. And Brian explained that that was something that he implemented in their lives as a family early on. And after some experience, I believe, of you being corrected by your wife, and your family. But, and we just thought it's so important in so for my journey, I'm starting to challenge myself to go on breaks. And I'm lucky enough that I've met someone really wonderful a little while ago. And that person is like, we need to take a break. So now it's starting to become more important to me to take breaks, and it's making a big difference. But my point with that story is I physically saw the difference of just creating some distance between work in those early days of running a business.

Ron Tomlian: 21:22

And I think this is one of the things that business leaders sometimes intentionally develop is a predisposition to not listening to their physicality, not listening to their bodies not listening to things like anxiety, because I'll talk it through, I'll just ignore that. And when we do that, we start to become immune to the signals that things are going wrong. Yeah. And again, I wonder whether popular business culture hasn't glorified people who can just work through get through. And we think that's the way it should be because of these myths that have developed about what, what it takes to be a successful business person.

Brenton Gowland: 22:08

And also, I think there's some generational stuff as well. And let me explain that. So there's one company that I've been working with enough, made some observations. And that company, a senior leader, has retired, and a new senior leader is coming. Now, I bumped into the previous leader of this business a while back. And they made some comments well intentioned, so forth about the new person, about the fact that they would leave on time that they would come to the business and arrive at 830. And leave four o'clock or do things in a certain way where this person I knew was rocking up at six in the morning, leaving at six at night. So they would arrive when it was dark. And they would leave when it was dark and not see the sun and they are significantly older than the new person. And I think there's this generational thing that exists about the way things should be done. If you're working hard, you should be in the office, you should be seen to be working. And I know that there's a lot going on at the moment in the business world. I heard of another we talked to Sim penzo A while ago about the four day workweek. And in Australia, Telstra is I think, the biggest telco and they were talking about the fact that they're starting to experiment with a four day work week with their employees. So we changing a

Ron Tomlian: 23:30

lot you deliver a New Zealand, yeah, I've just done a pilot, yeah, four day workweek, and found that 34% less absenteeism. As a result, increased engagement and productivity, or increased revenue. From those people who were working on accounts where they're only working on the four days a week,

Brenton Gowland: 23:50

we might get to a point where we have a siesta run.

Ron Tomlian: 23:53

Well, there's cultures and societies where that's the norm. Yeah. And they seem to have longevity. So some of those societies,

Brenton Gowland: 24:02

there is change coming, but I look at the new leader and I, I've been around a lot of people and I put stalking this person, I think this person's got the goods. And while that other person who was running the business did their part, and was committed and spent the time I think, in some senses to the detriment of their own life. You know, now that they're retired, I'm sure they'll do plenty of great things. But there's generational things I think people need to get over if we're talking to business owners who are in their 40s and 50s that they can learn from the younger people reverse mentoring, right? We

Ron Tomlian: 24:39

we you know, it wasn't that long ago, within our society in Australia, that there were certain attitudes, certain beliefs, certain values that we would not accept at all nowadays. Yeah, correct. So those things change. So why can't some of these things associated with life work balance change,

Brenton Gowland: 24:59

I think Need to change because if we look at the world at the moment, there is not a lot of separation with technology. And there's not a lot of separation with work in life because and cost of living. Like that's one of the biggest issues in Australia at the moment, I don't know, globally, like, we're working with people that are working in different countries, why partners from overseas, they tell me what goes on in those places. And it's not much different to Australia, it's it's a universal problem in the world at the moment, the whole work life balance issue and cost of living, and cost of living drives people to not take holidays.

Ron Tomlian: 25:37

And that that worries me a lot when when people prioritise a certain degree of affluence and lifestyle, okay, and you can argue, if you're just subsisting, that's different, but over their own health, over their own capacity to enjoy their life. And let's be fair, what that's what we're talking about him is life, work balance, for the purpose of having a life well lived. So that's in the present, as much as anything

Brenton Gowland: 26:09

you were talking about, you know, the benefits of taking a break. So there's benefits to the individual.

Ron Tomlian: 26:16

And the one I didn't cover was social benefits, and in particular, stronger relationships. You know, you've got to take time to work on your relationships, and that is easier when you're not stressed on the job. So breaking through the routine, we can your family relationships, but we can relationships with other people as well, you know, a break gives you the capacity to do that more effectively. So when people talk about breaks, they often think about getting away and, and that's great. But sometimes you can't get away, for whatever reason, family situations, dogs, as I'm finding at the moment, but that doesn't mean you can't take time off away from the routine. And some of that can be involved in building relationships with friends, community, and so on.

Brenton Gowland: 27:03

So the other one, though, is benefits to organisation, or you've already talked and hinted about all this kind of thing, you were talking about Unilever and the four day workweek, and they've been finding, there's less absenteeism. So if we're talking to business leaders, business builders, and we want you to be a whole person, we want to be hold people, what do we do with our staff, then how should we be encouraging them to take breaks?

Ron Tomlian: 27:25

I think yeah, of course, of course, and

Brenton Gowland: 27:27

don't lie. What's the benefit to the organisation,

Ron Tomlian: 27:29

one of the well, let me put it this way, the benefit to the organisation of you taking a break. Right, and individual taking a break is one, it shows leadership and modelling for the people who work for you. So you're setting a positive example, you say, I'm looking after myself, I want you to do the same. So one of the problems with the hero model of I don't need to take a break is that people think well to be successful, I don't either your people are looking at you as to how you live your life as as an example for maybe how they should live there. So there's another issue, right. So this is about setting a positive example for your people,

Brenton Gowland: 28:11

we just talked about cost of living, I reckon some people would save up their holidays, so that they can either get a bulk payment, because I know that some companies do bulk payments to pay out holidays, so they don't get big packages. And then also some people save it up, because they figure when they leave, they'll get a bigger payout. So if we've got an organisation, and this is one of the things that I learned is running a business, there was there came a point where we had to start looking at our staffs holidays, because they were building up and we had an enforced break every Christmas of two weeks. But that's splitted with public holidays. So in Australia, public holidays are days where people get paid to have a day off. Irrespective it's just law. So that reduces the amount of holidays they're taking. If you tell them well, two weeks over Christmas, you're gonna have off that means really, you're only having six or seven days on a 10 day break. My point is that, as a business leader, we've got to actually if we're interested in keeping up people, we'll have to have some policies within our business on taking breaks. Absolutely. That looks like

Ron Tomlian: 29:21

and and it's all very well to say okay, you guys, you have to take a break. But I don't have to. I mean that that just smacks of a lack of leadership, a lack of demonstrating this is actually a priority.

Brenton Gowland: 29:34

How many businesses do you think have actual policies on their staff taking breaks on holidays?

Ron Tomlian: 29:40

Not enough?

Brenton Gowland: 29:41

Not enough? That's a very good answer. Interestingly,

Ron Tomlian: 29:44

larger organisations I think, do but for the wrong reasons. We just don't want the liability of all these people accumulating leave correct instead of as it should be. We don't want these people becoming a problem. You in their lives and to us, because they're burnt out, because they're not resilient because they haven't recharge their batteries. That's what it should be about.

Brenton Gowland: 30:09

Correct. And that that's a that's a whole extra layer to what we talked about with the four day workweek. And if you're wondering what I'm talking about, go back and have a look through the catalogue of the Business Builders podcasts. And there is an episode we did with a gentleman named sim Penza about the four day workweek. And that was all about giving people lifework balance. But I think the next step to that is, how do we help people celebrate their time off? Why, how do we make it a thing where, where it becomes a norm within organisations because, well, I've

Ron Tomlian: 30:39

got to tell you, if you want it to be a norm, you delete as have to demonstrate. And, and this is where most people learn their values within an organisation or what their organisational values are, from the leaders.

Brenton Gowland: 30:52

And we always used to talk about because recruitment is a big problem for organisations right at the moment, because it's hard to find good talent at this particular point in time in Australia. And I'm assuming that would be similar in other places as well. The one of the things we had at a Nucleus is we gave people a day off for their birthday. And I remember we did this internal brand building exercise where we asked everyone, what were the things I really liked about Nucleus, and where can we improve? This was back in the day. And one of the biggest things that came out is people kept talking about their birthday day off about how important that was. And I remember thinking, that's not what I expected, I thought it because the way that came about, is I remember being at businesses where it was my birthday, and I had to pay to bring a cake in for my own birthday, I was like, This is ridiculous. And I remember thinking, look, the best birthday present I can give people is give them the day off as a paid day off one extra day. And that's my birthday present to you as as a business, but they loved it. And so can you imagine if you become a business that celebrates and encourages people to take breaks, and to take holidays. And you know, there's all sorts of ways of celebrating that. You've got internal newsletters, you can have John from accounts, giving his highlights of his time in the Flinders Ranges, or Mary and her time in Bali. And you celebrate that as part of a business and encourage it, this did to be a million creative ways you can do that. But that then creates a culture. And when we talked about the four day workweek, that was one of their elements as to how they would recruit people, if they really wanted someone to join the business, sim was saying that they would start to break out the four day workweek conversation, because that almost had more value than money. So I'm saying benefits to the organisation is beyond just the personal benefits of those people recharging, but it's a cultural thing, it says a lot about the business, as you're saying, it becomes a recruitment mechanism, there's layers and layers of it.

Ron Tomlian: 32:53

And the other thing too, and you touched on it before is that when leaders go on a break, it gives the people who are reporting to them the opportunity to step up to the plate, to try the skills and the attitudes that are required of a business leader. Because they have to fill in for a while somebody has to take responsibility. And that is a great learning mechanism for people to try before they buy. If you like in this whole leadership thing, some people will grab onto it and say I want more of that. And look for mechanisms and look for opportunities to develop their leadership capabilities. Other people will say, it's not for me, and be happy that they've tried it. And it's it's something that it's not they don't want to be part of their life. But most importantly, it gives the organisation the opportunity to give these people as a sense of I'm going to be a leader for a little while, give these people a learning platform, in terms of the leadership. And that's all often very difficult.

Brenton Gowland: 34:04

But also bench tests the business to have I set it up correctly. Or if even if it's a department, let's say you're a manager of a department and you go away it, it bench tests whether you've actually set the department up well, and it shows where there's holes and weaknesses when you come back. And that's great because you learn but it also I will guarantee you people will step up and you put the authority in them and you go away, you will be surprised at what you learn about people. And sometimes the people you least expect will make you go heck, that person's got potential I did not see before. So I think, Man, there are so many benefits to as you said earlier, getting some distance from work and allowing other people to step into the gap because I think a big mistake a lot of people make and I made it for years was not letting go and not getting away enough to allow the business to develop a bit on its own. Because if you set up the right framework for the business to grow your strategies and other things? Do you really need to run it? Do you really need to run every aspect of it? Of course not. It won't grow if you don't step back a little. And that's

Ron Tomlian: 35:08

what leadership is all about. I would argue that, and I heard this many years ago, from a leadership development expert, that the number one role of a leader is to develop the next cadre of leaders within an organisation to make themselves redundant. Well, exactly. But but to ensure the organisation has some sustainability, because it's not all reliant on me.

Brenton Gowland: 35:32

Yep. And that then becomes the progression of the leader. Because the leader goes from being well, a manager to a executive within the organisation to maybe a CEO, or a CEO, or whatever it is, but then the next steps is to become board members, and so forth. So if you want to progress yourself, you have to grow these businesses and be willing to let it take over your role so that you can then move up.

Ron Tomlian: 35:57

Well, I learned that the hard way. Did you

Brenton Gowland: 36:00

explain that one?

Ron Tomlian: 36:01

Well, very early on in my career, I was leading a group of people. And I was looking for the next stage in my progression, and an opportunity came up. And I applied within an organisation for that position. And I didn't get it. And I knew very confidently, that I was the best person for the job. And I went to the person who was making that decision. And I said, I'm sorry, but I think you made a mistake. He said, I haven't made a mistake. I think I was the best person for that job. He said, Absolutely. You were, and I'm disappointed that I couldn't appoint you to that job. It was a new position and a new role. And I said, What do you mean, you couldn't appoint me? He said, Well, you haven't spent any time developing the people who report to you, so they could take your role. Wow, that's great. And he said, and I'm sorry, but at the moment, your role in this organisation is critical. The new role is an opportunity. Your role is critical, hadn't replaced yourself, and you haven't you haven't given me any options to replace you. I said, That's not my responsibilities that isn't. Oh, that's interesting, isn't it. And that's where I learned that, that whole idea that actually the role of the leader is through, develop the people underneath them so that they can step up when the time is required. That is brilliant. Yeah, it wasn't brilliant at the time. But it was an important lesson that I learned. And I've taken that with me.

Brenton Gowland: 37:30

But that's, that's how it works, right. And that's, that's why we're here as Business Builders podcast. So hopefully, you can learn from us and the people we get on here so that you don't have to experience these things yourself.

Ron Tomlian: 37:41

You don't have to go through all that problem is just so take a break. Okay. Yeah, please.

Brenton Gowland: 37:46

Now just on that, we got to move along a bit, because I think we've covered off on good reasons to take a break and why it should be important within the organisation that we prioritise, even our staff taking breaks. So what type of breaks are there on?

Ron Tomlian: 37:59

Well, to me, there are three types of breaks, there are, you know, people say, Oh, I take a break, I take a weekend away, once a year, that's not a break. That's what I call a sustaining break. They're the type of breaks, you know, just to get me through the next couple of months, I've got to have something to look forward to. And I've got to have something where I can just rejuvenate, you know, the batteries last recharge, not recharge completely, but just keep me going, just keep me going. And I call those sustained breaks, you know, like a weekend away, a couple of days off. But that's not enough to reset yourself and to really recharge the batteries completely. That's a rejuvenating break. Now, the first one is a couple of days. The second one is I think a minimum of two weeks. Okay. And that's we talked about that before, to me, three weeks is better. Six weeks, if you can get it. But I know that's not always easy. Yes. And I haven't taken six weeks off for a number of years, for a whole bunch of reasons. But I will take three week breaks at a time at least once a year. Right. And you'll find out what your setpoint is. Some people might be less, some people might be more. And then the third type is what you talked about before micro breaks. And that might be an afternoon off every now and then. It might be even on the weekends. You know, you say? Well, on the weekends, of course, you your that whole weekend is a break. It's not if you've got a whole bunch of other responsibilities outside your working responsibilities. I'm talking about taking some time to do things you enjoy, where you feel more relaxed as a result of that than you did before.

Brenton Gowland: 39:43

And look, micro breaks have been my saving grace over the years. Like I told you that I didn't take holidays for an extremely long period of time, but taking it was just booking a Monday when or booking your Friday off when a Monday was a public holiday. So I'd have a four day weekend and that four days is, yeah, that's probably more what you were talking about as a sustaining break. But it's essentially also could be a microbe, right? But let's call that a sustaining break. But there's been plenty of times where I've just gone and had one meeting a day and had the rest of the day off and just gone and sipped coffee somewhere or sat on a beach or started writing because I was writing a book at the time, I'm gonna have to get back to that at some point where I go and do an activity like that. It was a beach down here, I used to go to our take my laptop, and they had an outdoor bar. And it's super simple, like Mojito or something and, and write a book. Yeah,

Ron Tomlian: 40:39

I think a good topic for one of our podcasts could be the whole idea of reflection, I think in leadership, one of the things that we don't place enough emphasis on is reflecting. Now, you could argue that the micro break is maybe a form of reflection, I don't know. And we can have that discussion later on. Well, I

Brenton Gowland: 40:58

think it's a little bit of that separation from work as you were talking about earlier.

Ron Tomlian: 41:03

And I would say reflection is a part of your work, but not enough people actively, prioritise time for reflection. So maybe the micro breaks only

Brenton Gowland: 41:12

called the micro break a circuit breaker, just enough to break that circuit, so that you can then get back into it. So that you can de stress. Yeah, so three types of break. You said a sustaining, right? Yep. Give me a quick definition. Well, weekend away, weekend away. So my book Friday off when you've got a Monday, public holiday, everyone will try and do that. But yeah, think about your

Ron Tomlian: 41:35

blog, rather than taking a second. Yeah. Oh,

Brenton Gowland: 41:38

yeah. Rejuvenating breaks. So minimum of two weeks I

Ron Tomlian: 41:42

that's, that's my definition. And certainly for me, two to three weeks is is probably what I'm looking for. Because of that time to de stress. And the the anticipation of going back to work, which doesn't give you time, if you're only taking a week off, doesn't give you a significant amount of time to actually enjoy that, that period where you can take the stress levels down, and then

Brenton Gowland: 42:11

a micro break. So I look for ways of taking micro breaks. So for instance, if I have to go and meet with a client in the Bourassa, and I have a couple hour meeting, I'll go well, what am I doing with the rest of my day, I might go visit this display centre or this little town or whatever it is on the way back, and that becomes almost like a market break. Because you might as well enjoy it, if you're gonna go have to drive to another place, or you pick a day off, if you've got a fairly busy week, but you see, I haven't got many meetings on that particular day. And I'll take that day off and go sit on the beach and write my book or whatever it is. So there's, we've got three types of breaks. And maybe there's other types of breaks. If you're listening, as we said earlier, we really want to start getting into getting feedback from yourself. So if you've joined, what we recommend, join our podcast group on LinkedIn. And we'll put some open posts in there that you can comment on or talk on or respond to us. But it'd be nice to hear from you. If you think there's any other types of breaks that we could take.

Ron Tomlian: 43:15

And to finish today. Yeah, I, as we discussed before, I would like to throw out a challenge to people. Okay, hit me with because it's all very well to talk about this break stuff and taking a break. But so many people will listen to this and say well, yeah, but yeah, what am I? What am I going to do with that? Right? I'd like to challenge people to book at least one four day weekend away within the next three months.

Brenton Gowland: 43:40

Okay, so that's challenge number one. Challenge number one. So this is about prioritising taking a break. And if you're listening, we're asking you to take action. So number one is book at least a four day weekend away within the next three months. I can do that. Okay, because you're gonna do that

Ron Tomlian: 43:56

I already have. So I'm ahead of the curve. Yeah, I have at least a two week block within the next six months now. I'll make it within the next 12 months. If you've just had some time off in July. I know a lot of people have, you know, travelled off overseas during the the cameras, none other than hemisphere summer, you know, so they're good luck to them. And fantastic. You You live in what we're talking about. But I would say for the rest of you, within the next six months, book to at least two weeks, we have got a block of time. And there's actually no excuse that I can think of that would prevent me from doing that even with, you know, people say, Well, I can't do that because with this big project answer. I'd say you have to do that because you got a big project on, you know, this idea that taking a break is a luxury. No, it's a necessity. Okay, if you want to sustain your capacity as a leader, you need time to reach so

Brenton Gowland: 44:56

some people might say taking two weeks off that's going to cost me a lot of money. I know I was just talking to someone the other day about coming to South Australia and they're like, ah, that's going to cost a lot. So you don't have to necessarily go away somewhere fancy

Ron Tomlian: 45:07

to look at one of the things I did in my impoverished youth was after I'd been overseas, and that's probably why I was impoverished, I realised that I didn't know that much about my own city. So I took a week off. My wife and I took a week off and we act as tourists, with our city as though we were here. We still lived at home, but we would go into the city or go around to the, you know, the environs near us, and act like we'd never been here before. Go to the Broadway nutcase, go to the Brazos Valley go to McLaren Vale, go to the Adelaide Hills. Take a day doing each one of those sort of things and rediscover your own area.

Brenton Gowland: 45:49

That's interesting, because tourists often know more about your own hometown than you do research. And we just take it for granted.

Ron Tomlian: 45:55

And one of the things I often get asked is when it comes to Adelaide, where am I going to stay? I don't know. Because I don't stay in any of the hotels in Adelaide because I live here. There's there's think hotel hop for a week. Yeah, just something a little bit different. Little bit interesting. And so that you can give friends and business associates the benefit of Well, I wouldn't stay at this hotel. I

Brenton Gowland: 46:19

call that so we really didn't talk about this, but that was staycation got really popular A while back, did

Ron Tomlian: 46:26

it. I think I got incredibly popular during the COVID.

Brenton Gowland: 46:30

Yeah. So they would call that a staycation if you went and stayed in a hotel in your own hometown. And I think that's all it is a staycation where you stay in your home I think qualifies as a hotel. Yeah. Well,

Ron Tomlian: 46:42

I I'm not pedantic about that. As long as if you don't have a lot of money to go away, you don't have to go away, you can still have a break just locally at home gears break the routine. And the third challenge. Yes, at least one afternoon off in the next month. Okay. Now, some people might say micro break. Yeah, it's, look, some people might say I can't do that. Because the next month is incredibly busy. I would argue, that's why you want to do it. When you're busy. That's when you need more breaks. I mean, just think about it. When you're under a lot of stress. That's when you need these stressors, these micro breaks can be a great de stressor. So my opinion. Challenge one. Do that. Water. Yeah, that's a rainy day weekend. Yep, do that book that within the next month, the six day or the two weeks, okay, you got a couple of months to organise it, but make sure it's in the next six months. And today, you can put half a day up in your diary somewhere along the line to do something that you may really enjoy.

Brenton Gowland: 47:51

Yeah, so three challenges yet, book, at least one four day weekend, within the next three months, have at least a two week block within the next six months. And at least one afternoon off in the next month. And look, I would ask that if you are listening, commit to this with us do this with us. I'm gonna do it. And for me, it's always been a challenge. I think my partner will love this show, listen to this podcast and and be like so when you accountable when are we going away. So that will make it pretty easy for me. But we will post up in the LinkedIn group. And if you're listening to us, jump on LinkedIn, look up the business builders podcast group request access, rather owner, I have a look at your request, we'll put you on board. But we're going to put up a post when we release this podcast. And we will put the challenge there and get people to comment on you know what they're going to do when they're booking their time.

Ron Tomlian: 48:46

Fantastic. I'd love to see people telling us about what they plan to do.

Brenton Gowland: 48:51

Yeah, well, there will always be me. So I'll be like, Yeah, well, I'm gonna book these deaths. Just be you. And maybe, if you're out there and you're listening, jump on board, get on the LinkedIn group and commit with us to take some time off, because it's one of the ways that we're going to help in terms of encouraging business builders to really become that whole person we were talking about at the start of this episode.

Ron Tomlian: 49:15

And like I said, don't think of it as time off. Think of it is time productively spent breaking your routine so that you're more capable and productive and effective when you come back on the job. If you if you want to eat, you know, a guilt free version of it. Think of it as doing something productive for being more effective when you get back to work.

Brenton Gowland: 49:39

Yeah, and you know what I like about doing this podcast and we've we've got a we've got a few 100 listeners. So there's not 1000s and 1000s of people but we see the stats and there's a couple of 100 people downloading each episode, which is great. But I love the fact that we're challenging ourselves as well and you who are listening, come along on the journey with us. We'll challenge each other together but I really love this fact. Says me being held accountable by my words here.

Ron Tomlian: 50:03

Yeah, well, I'll be the one doing that. Oh, really?

Brenton Gowland: 50:06

Yeah. Well, thank you, Ron. But look, if you've been listening, we love having you listening in. We love having these conversations. And we have our sleep specialist booked in, not for the next episode, but for the one after that, go to sleep specialist. I've had a long conversation. This person is a psychologist, and is very, very good at helping people get better sleep. So I've I've had about a almost an hour conversation with this person. And all I can say is, I'm really excited for this episode that's coming up soon. So if sleep is something you want to improve,

Ron Tomlian: 50:41

so into my way of thinking, breaks, important, sleep critical. So looking forward to that podcast and

Brenton Gowland: 50:49

on that note to buy. Goodbye for me. Thank you bye from me. See you later.