Hey Business Builders, ever felt like you're constantly juggling work and personal life? We've all been there. After chatting with Samantha Young about burnout in the last few episodes, we realised that the key to avoiding things like burnout is understanding ourselves better and acting on those insights. In this episode, we talk about the simple stuff - taking a step back, thinking about what matters, and making sure we're looking after ourselves. Because when we're good, our businesses are good.
Key Takeaways:
Join us as we share our personal experiences, the lessons we've learned, and practical tips to help you navigate the balancing act of life. Because at the end of the day, the most crucial business you'll ever manage is the business of you.
Hey Business Builders, ever felt like you're constantly juggling work and personal life? We've all been there. After chatting with Samantha Young about burnout in the last few episodes, we realised that the key to avoiding things like burnout is understanding ourselves better and acting on those insights. In this episode, we talk about the simple stuff - taking a step back, thinking about what matters, and making sure we're looking after ourselves. Because when we're good, our businesses are good.
Key Takeaways:
Join us as we share our personal experiences, the lessons we've learned, and practical tips to help you navigate the balancing act of life. Because at the end of the day, the most crucial business you'll ever manage is the business of you.
Hey there Business Builders ever felt like you're walking a tightrope trying to balance your work and personal life. Today. After our recent episodes about burnout, we're focusing on the importance of self awareness, recognising our needs and acting on them can be a game changer for both ourselves and our businesses. So stay tuned for some practical advice about improving your Life-Work balance. Well, welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts. I am Brenton Gowland.
Ron Tomlian:And I'm Ron Tomlian.
Brenton Gowland:And, Ron, we've had a couple of really interesting episodes here over the last few with Samantha young talking about burnout, and then obviously starting our Life-Work balance series, how have you been finding it?
Ron Tomlian:Yeah, oh look to have someone with Sam's perspective and experience helping God, that discussion was fantastic, and so many important insights, especially in terms of the workplace, and how to prevent problems for other people, employees? I think that's fantastic. But I think it's worth thinking about, what practical things can we help people with? Yes, using the last couple of episodes as background and perspective? What can we help people with in terms of practical things they can do to get a better balance in their life?
Brenton Gowland:100% agree, because the biggest thing and look to everyone who's listening, this is a big topic. lifework balance? Yeah. But I have found that it's been talking to me in terms of what we were talking about with Dr. Samantha young, in the last couple of episodes, all those points. You know, that DEF CON scale, by the way, we researched the DEF CON scale. You know how we had DEF CON five
Ron Tomlian:was does it go that far does it? Well,
Brenton Gowland:it does does. So we had in reverse order DEF CON one is the lightest, the highest statement. But that's okay. But anyway,
Ron Tomlian:I think people can relate to
Brenton Gowland:All those points that Sam made, I found, it was talking to me each time, particularly about making sure that you take care of yourself, particularly mentally, and that you don't allow stress, I guess, to build up in such a way that at some point you collapse, because that's a warning to a lot of people that if you let the stress continue, and you're on that burnout pathway, when something happens, it could be something really significant. Like it could be a heart attack, or it could be a mental breakdown, or it could be your health going in some fashion. But it really spoke to me about taking care of myself, I kept seeing myself through the lens of what was being discussed and thinking, Boy, I could do better there. I could do better there.
Ron Tomlian:I mean, look, if you look at all the people who use a terrible experience that they've had in their life, and they are willing to talk about it, why not? It's not just therapeutic for them, it's that they want to try and help other people prevent them from going down the same path. Yeah, yeah. And I suppose this is what we're trying to do with the business builders podcast, talking about lifework balance Yes, is you don't have to go through a life changing experience to change your life. You don't have to get on the brink of the Abyss, in order for you to make changes that will make your life better. And in terms of work, you don't have to go through a crisis in order for you to realise that there's a better way of doing things. So listen to what other people are saying and start to internalise that, as you've you've done, start to internalise it and say, What can I do better to prevent that from happening?
Brenton Gowland:I think I've listened to people along the way, including yourself and others, and have come right to the brink of the precipice, as we were talking about as you're referring Justin. And I very, very luckily haven't gone over the edge. But that's where mentors really come into play. And what we're trying to do here and in talking to people is really understanding what's going on in your body in yourself, in your mind, now, so that you can take positive action, as you say, to not have to fall off the precipice. I think
Ron Tomlian:if you take your eye off the ball, in terms of what's important, and I think it starts with that, a lot of this comes down to understanding yourself and what's important to you. So examining your values. I mean, it's easy to say, but how many people who are listening have actually sat down either in a guided way with someone else, or by themselves and looked at what am I what's important to me, what am i values what So, driving me, what will I accept? And what won't I seen in my life? And I think the other thing that flows directly from that is, what does success look like for me? You know, we talked a few episodes ago about lifework balance being, what's the ultimate, it's being able to say, I've lived a life well
Brenton Gowland:lived a life worth living. You said, yeah,
Ron Tomlian:a life with life well lived. And there are things that are every individual, you can say, I can at the end of my life, if I've done this, or I've lived like this, I've lived my life. Well, yes, but what are they? What are they for you? What are they for me? What are they for the people listening? And it takes a little bit of reflection, a little bit of time to think about that. And I think the biggest, the biggest problem of not doing that, is letting the world determine that for you.
Brenton Gowland:Yep. If I asked you that question. And this is just a random thought, because we talk about this kind of thing a lot. Like we've talked on the business builders podcast in the past about creating a personal plan, and then strategy. And when we talk about a business strategy, that's great. What about a life strategy? What about a career strategy? Do you what are those things for you? Do you know what they are off the top of your head?
Ron Tomlian:To articulate them right off the top of my head, I'd forgotten. Firstly, I'd say I want to enjoy what I do. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that everything I do has to be pleasurable or happening. But I want to feel that it's making a contribution to other people. And I want to feel that I feel fulfilled by doing it. Yeah. And that's number one, to my relationships, my direct relationships, my family, my wife, my children, are terribly important to me. Yeah. And that's probably a driving force for me. So those two things make up the core of what's important for me. Travel is one of the things that I finding credibly important.
Brenton Gowland:And that's what started us on this journey of life work balance.
Ron Tomlian:It doesn't have to be travelled far and wide. And even just last weekend, I went up to Claire with a group of friends today that the here's a plug for the Stanley grammar country has absolutely fantastic. If you get a chance to go up there sounds like an old school. It is. It is it is an old school. And it was the Stanley Grammar School in Claire. And they've turned it into a essentially a b&b. Fantastic, absolutely beautiful place and relaxed, and a wonderful time. wonderful weekend. And that's rejuvenating. And the reason I say you've got to understand what success means for you, is I'm tired of hearing the expression mirror life is a marathon, not a sprint. You've heard that one? Yes, yeah, life's a marathon, not a sprint. So you know, you got to go hard for long and it's about endurance and resilience. And Sam did talk about weaponizing resilience last week, and I think that's one of the problems. Life is not a marathon. Life is a series of sprints. Now if you look at the guys who do any type of elite athletics or elite sportsmen in general, none of them would say well, I just go flat out all the time. 100% of the time, just keep going. They don't do that. If they're playing a game of football, they play hard for that game. And then the rest and rejuvenate and then they go home next week. And in fact you can't play at that at elite level. If you are not rejuvenating in between those Sprint's man i think i lives like that too. We don't a lot of people don't believe that they can ever turn themselves off. Sam talked about this last week always on, if you're always on you are going to be operating at sub par level. So you need time to rest and rejuvenate. It's like you know, your battery in your car. If you've got an electric car, your battery in your electric bike like I have, you've got to recharge it and that's downtime to recharge. And then you can go full pelt, but then you have to recharge and life is like that. And what rejuvenates you what recharges you is not just laying on the couch and going blah. It can be a whole bunch of you know I find great rejuvenation in some activities like painting and drawing. I find that that works for me to help me feel focused on something that is not work related. And appreciating that work life balance. So life work balance or however we want to put it is not just about family and work to bipolar type things. We're talking about all aspects of you Live. So being able to say what's important, what's a life well lived in all aspects of my life. And I get by, as you know, I get the TEC members that I have to evaluate themselves in terms of how they spend their time, in all aspects of their life. There's work, direct family, and maybe extended family relationships, friendships, and connection, community self development. Now a lot of people neglect the self development, their finances and health. And this is another thing people are willing to sacrifice their health. But if you don't have your health, how can you do any of the other things?
Brenton Gowland:Well, the funny thing is, if you don't have your health, then you health becomes really important. And because then it becomes the thing you focus on. And I think it was Steve Jobs who said, Let your food be your medicine, otherwise, your medicine will become your food, which is a backhanded way of saying, if you don't look after yourself, well, then all you're going to be doing is focusing on looking after yourself. And it's not going to be a pretty picture really, because when you isn't an interesting when your health is at its best, you don't notice it. It's only when your health starts to suffer that you start to notice it.
Ron Tomlian:And I think that's so true in all aspects of our life. If if we don't spend some time reflecting on what's going well, what's not going well, what do I want to improve, and ain't couldn't be an annual thing. If you're lying. It could be more regular, I was speaking to one of my tech members, the other he takes a day, a quarter, a day, a full day, a quarter, and spends that full day reflecting on, what did I do well over the last 90 days, what did I maybe do sub optimally? And what am I going to focus on for the next 90 days, that's really good. It's fantastic. Because 90 day, there's plenty of research to show 90 days is sort of what we can keep in our heads. I mean, you can have longer term plans. But what we can actually action is about a 90 day timeframe.
Brenton Gowland:And as you know, the whole CEO thing, when a CEO comes into a business, they usually have a 90 day plan, or
Ron Tomlian:they rounded up to 100 day plan, you know, to make it sound impressive, but the whole point is having those timeframes that are actionable, really important. And I admire him for having come to the realisation that for him. That's that sort of timeframe that he works on. And it works. And he is regular about it. And I think the other thing too, is reflection. We're not good. I don't think Ed and business people in particular are not good at reflecting on what's worked, what hasn't. And what do I want to improve. I think we've become so action oriented, so busy, that we don't have the time to internalise and reflect so that you need to put some time aside and we often diarize activities associated with work, why don't we do that, for the things that we find enjoyable and things that rejuvenate us as well.
Brenton Gowland:I remember there was a person I used to work with a long time ago who said, I need to put gym in as a diary note because it's like being part of my work. If I want to perform well, then I need to be at gym at least three days a week. So that's in my diary.
Ron Tomlian:Absolutely. And if we're going to be pedantic about putting everything that we do at work in our diaries, why don't we do that for a while for a person look and look. Because it's it's hard work. And I understand that. So it doesn't have to be as specific, but allocating time for things. And if a diary helps you do that fantastic. If you have routines that help you do that. That's great, too. You know, if you say, well, routinely, I go on Saturday morning, or a gym session, I don't have to put that in my diary. It's always I know that don't put it in your diary, but make sure you stick to the routine. Well,
Brenton Gowland:it's interesting you say that, but I think it's different people different ways of doing things like you talked about the gentleman who once every 90 days reviews his performance, I prefer to do that once a week. That's just the way I roll. And I learned this a while back in regards to accounting. So every three months in Australia, if you're listening internationally, we have to do your thing called our bass, which is an activity statement for work where we get to pay a GST back to the government isn't that wonderful. But I used to do it every 90 days. And that would take me eight to 16 hours to tabulate everything to make sure all the expenses were accounted for, et cetera. And I used to dread it and then was actually my partner was like, why don't you do it once a week and I thought well, why don't I do it every day. So the first thing I do every morning now is log on to the computer get into my accounting package and do my three or four receipts from the day before or whatever it might be, which takes me five minutes, sometimes 10 minutes max, but I do that every day. And now, all those accounting requirements are already taken care of pretty much before their way before they do. And then it makes a huge difference.
Ron Tomlian:And that gets me to my next point in terms of this is using the technology that's available to make your life easier. Outsource and automate in might be that you outsource that sort of thing to somebody else. So automate it. So in this particular case, you're doing it automatically every day. But there are the there's probably an app out there to help you do that more effectively great, use the technology to make your life more focused on the things that are important. Yes. So that you can for the sake of argument, you take the stress that was associated with doing your best once every three months out of your life. And just with simple little things that you can do every day, not every day, every week. Look, I now got into the discipline of doing my best, once a month, at the end of the month, and it takes me an hour and it's done.
Brenton Gowland:Fantastic. That's a good example for work life balance, right? Because I would put off the best till the very last minute because it became a huge job. But by breaking it down into for me a daily exercise for your monthly exercise, it becomes a much more manageable task. So why are we talking about this? Look, this is really a review podcast. If you're a regular listener, Ron and I, I've said it 3 million times, we always have a pre chat. And today we were basically discussing what we talked about with Samantha and what we talked about in the start of this lifework balance series. And we're gonna be looking at some other things in the future like sleep. And today we were talking about the kind of things we should be looking at. And you were saying health and nutrition and fitness. And it started me thinking a lot in our discussions about how do I treat myself? And what was the question you asked me when we were talking before this session? Oh, when
Ron Tomlian:you get down? Or when you get when you get your batteries are at their lowest ebb? How do you get back into the grid get back to some form of energy? How do you recover from a sprint? And look, I'm not saying for for, for anyone who's listening, I'm not saying there won't be times when you have to go full bore for a period. It's just that you cannot do that indefinitely. And there's no badge of honour that should be associated with people who tried to do that indefinitely. You have to recover, you wouldn't do that to your car. And as some people do, you wouldn't do that to your car, just run it into the ground and not maintain it on a regular basis. So why do we let people do that to themselves? A lot of people do that to themselves. It's because they don't realise the consequences until it's too late.
Brenton Gowland:Well, I gave you a bit of a glib answer when you asked me this morning, and that was basically I just stop in my body. I've learned to listen to my body over the years that if I'm tired, I'll sleep. If I feel like I need a break, I'll go for a walk I might have in walking has been one of my biggest things. I'll go for a walk three times a day and get my 10,000 steps in by breaking it down into 20 minutes here 20 minutes or 20 minutes somewhere else, maybe three or four times a day. Instead of doing one, one hour block where I go, Where can I find that one hour to go for my 10,000 steps or whatever it is. But I've thought about that a little bit more since we had that chat. And for me things one of the real things that helps me unwind is if I can actually cook a meal. I love cooking like you like painting and doing other bits and pieces. And I'm supposed to be the creative one here. But it sounds like you are but I like I love cooking new things and preparing things. And I particularly like it when I'm cooking for other people. I know this is strange, but I love putting food on for other people because I love seeing them enjoy it. And when my partner for example, I'll cook something new and she'll be like, Wow, that's, that's amazing.
Ron Tomlian:But that's success for you. Yeah, I mean, and understanding what is going better really makes me unplug it but but here if you didn't have that in your life, no matter how much money you say I've worked hard I can afford a chef to cook for me personally. It takes a lot of fun out. But but that's the thing. The one thing that I'm tired of hearing from other people's I'll be happy when no you want because you've got that new car. Yeah, like I was like that and don't let me take away the enjoyment of getting a new coat. It's fabulous. Yeah, but it's not going to last. Nothing Lasts when it's it's a physical thing. You get a new house you Get a new car and it's fantastic. And before long, it says it's just my car, whether it's a Maserati or whatever. So I think understanding that the things that you find enjoyable life are really important, and you need to prioritise them. So, health and nutrition, don't let it go. Because those are your tuneups, regular everyday tuneups that you can do. A lot of people put 98 octane into their car, because they say, it will keep it going better, do the same for yourself, put yourself as a priority in terms of what you're putting into your body and how you're using that body. Because if you neglect it, it will come back and bite you.
Brenton Gowland:Yeah, and of course, it's a bit of an interesting topic, really, because what we're talking about here is how to perform better. So to perform better, we need to be taking care of ourselves, our body, the thing that actually enables us to perform,
Ron Tomlian:and it's not just performance at work, very important, because that that should be something that is important in your life. And then you you feel fulfilled by doing, but it's performance at home as well with your family, with your friends, performance as a friend performance as a family member, being so stressed at work that you come home and bite everybody's heads off is not good performance, not at all now. And so one of the other things I think, would talk about practical things, is acknowledge that you don't have to do it all yourself, have a support system around you, if you find exercising really difficult. Get people to help you with that aspect of your life. You know, whether it's a personal trainer, if you can, you find that important, and you can afford it, or go walking with somebody make it an enjoyable experience, but have a support system around you. Now, this might sound a little bit self serving, because I run groups of executives and CEOs. But have people who understand your world, whether it's your business world or your personal world, have people around you who you can talk to you about this sort of thing. Yes, you know, so have a support system, whether it's for the various aspects of your life, you have a community friendships, have those people around you, who you can't, when things get tough, you can rely on to have a chat to have a discussion with, I think that's one of the things that we've lost, it was almost inherent before in our neighbourhoods, and our institutions, that we would have those communities around us, we'd have those people around us, and we become more isolated technology hasn't helped on social media, you could argue, should have helped. But it's actually I think, making people more isolated, because what they put on social media is orchestrated and staged, managed. It's not real them, I see so many people who put things on social media, and it makes their lives look fantastic. But you know, sitting below that it's not real. It's not the real life. And you think why do you do that? Why don't you just get connection with some people who can actually support you, and celebrate with you?
Brenton Gowland:Well, it's interesting, isn't it? But it does come back to what makes you happy. So you talked about earlier that that whole syndrome that we have of wanting something, and we think we'll be happy when we get it? Well, I think maybe, maybe that's why people project something on social media. I mean, I do the same thing. I think we naturally gravitate towards wanting our lives to be in a better place or wanting to project how we think our lives should be. So there's that whole projection thing going on, right? So I'm sure there's some if we had sand back some wonderful psychology behind it, but it does bring us back to what we started with, which is what is of life well lived to us. And I think it takes a great deal of maturity. And if you're running a business, running a business takes a great deal of maturity, if you want to get it right, you got to make hard decisions. You've got to lead people, but actually sitting down with yourself and going what really makes me happy. That takes a great deal of maturity like that. One of the things that I haven't been doing since I've had a partner, so I've been six months with someone. I haven't been going out to the same places. I haven't been going to the particular pub that I've been going to for those of you who are listening, this is not a bombshell but I used to smoke. I haven't smoked for about 90 days now and I feel like a completely different person. Fantastic. It's because I haven't been hanging out those places because I was never that smoker who smoked. You know, I'm saying so I'd go down to the pub or wherever it was and have a drink with people and that's where I'd have a cigarette. But having not doing that it does tend to make you or for instance me a lot happier. And I'm I guess less sociable Spending more quality time with just a few people. And this is a particular period of my life. And I recognise that I want to get out and go and do more networking. But what makes me happy, I've realised is a lot more quality and a lot smaller groups of people at the moment. And that's, that's a big thing for me, because I've always been a big extrovert. Yeah.
Ron Tomlian:And I think the other thing about all this is when we talk about what is a life well lived, is our priorities will change over time. There are different stages in our life, when you're very career focused, and you're looking to advance. And then other times it will be about your family. And other times it will be about self fulfilment, and self actualization, and all those wonderful things that the Hierarchy of Needs told us about. But what's important is that we recognise that there needs to be some reflection at different stages in our lives. That where we we ask ourselves, what for me at the moment is about living a life well lived?
Brenton Gowland:Yep. So in wrapping this up, and really this episode we've just been reflecting. So if you've just joined us, or if you've been listening for a while, this is basically a reflection on the last two episodes, where we've talked with Samantha young about what burnout is, and what the antidote for burnout is. And there's some quite catastrophic consequences of burnout, it can cause some significant problems. So in reflection today, I think we're extending the whole antidote to burnout thing, and what I'm really picking up in what we're talking about is the fact that reflection, and actually writing down or making clear what it is that makes us happy, and what we want to do and how we want to live our life will actually help us avoid the burnout trap. Would you agree?
Ron Tomlian:Yes, absolutely. And it won't avoid it, unless we're willing to do the things that we've identified.
Brenton Gowland:Yeah. And let's, let's name those things, because one of them is definitely a reflection. So this is for all of us, for our listeners, and definitely for myself, because, as I said, at the start, when we were talking with Sam, I was picking up a lot of stuff and going, Oh, gee, that's me. That's me, oh, I got to stop that. Maybe I'm at DEF CON three or four. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go back and listen to the episode that's called when your passion turns to poison. Sam was talking about the DEF CON scale. And I've already mentioned we got it backwards, but we'll go with it. So I've recognised that I've been at DEF CON for most of the DEF CON five points before and had to reduce myself down reflection with what you're saying is one of those ways that we can actually start to identify where we should be
Ron Tomlian:awareness of our ourselves. I truly reflection leads to awareness. Yeah. awareness of what triggers me. So understanding your own values, what triggers me, what are the signs that things aren't going well, listening to yourself? I think particularly for men, we've been socialised into not listening to our emotions, not listening to the feelings that we have. And we've got to get back into I'm feeling this what does it feel like? And what does it mean for me? So awareness. I think the other thing too, is understanding that it's life is a series of sprints, and I need to be able to perform well. And there's times that I need to sprint, I need time for downtime and rejuvenation.
Brenton Gowland:Well, when you think about a sprint as well, you also need training in preparation to be able to do that sprint properly.
Ron Tomlian:Yeah. And as I suppose the, if you were going to summarise it and maintenance, maintenance on a regular basis for yourself. And I think the other thing is allocating time to what's important to you and not thinking that I have to allocate specific times in my work life. And I don't have to do that in my personal life.
Brenton Gowland:So not just die arising work, but die arising our downtime as well.
Ron Tomlian:Yeah, it's it's a helpful tool.
Brenton Gowland:I think that's interesting, because that speaks to being planful. With your time and if you know, back to what we were talking about earlier, what makes you really happy and what makes you function well as a human being based on reflection, then you can diarize
Ron Tomlian:and understand what rejuvenates you, and it could be cooking a meal, it could be going for a walk, it could be spending time with friends, whatever it is, make time for those things that rejuvenate because it will help you be more productive in the things that are important to you, like your career or your work life or your business.
Brenton Gowland:And as always, we're talking to business builders, we improve ourselves in order to grow better businesses. And so to improve ourselves. We're suggesting that you focus on you.
Ron Tomlian:And don't forget, as a business builder, you are a leader. Do and people look to you? So if you're not looking after yourself, how can you expect your people to do that?
Brenton Gowland:That really came through with what Sam was talking about in the last episode? You she was suggesting that if you model overworking people in your business will think that's what I got to do.
Ron Tomlian:Absolutely. And you think, well, that's fantastic. They're spending 15 hours, but the truth of the matter is, they're burning themselves out, and they won't be of use to you or your business anyway, or the operating at sub optimal levels, in terms of concentration and focus. So it looks like they're doing a lot of stuff. But in fact, they're not achieving what you want them to. Yep.
Brenton Gowland:And the other one is, we all try to emulate our heroes, right? Kids in particular, but in workplaces, business, business, people become your heroes. And we were talking about people like Elon Musk, and even Simon Sinek, and all these kinds of people that we see regularly in our news feeds or in our social platforms. And, you know, Elon Musk is one of the richest men in the world. And he does some pretty amazing things. But I wouldn't say he's got the best work life balance based on some of the interviews I've seen with him. So do we want to model that? Perhaps we do.
Ron Tomlian:Well, put it this way. I suspect that he is driven by things that most people aren't driven by. And for him if it works, and if he feels fulfilled, and he feels genuinely that he's lived his life? Well, who am I to say, his routine is not not appropriate.
Brenton Gowland:But if we can model something better, is what I was kind of getting at. Yeah, we become the hero, the people watching us? Well,
Ron Tomlian:there's a, there's an alternative to the Elon Musk working 24 hours a day type of thing. And all I'm getting at is that no one else can answer that question for you. What's a life well lived for me? No one else. So you've got to spend some time thinking about what do I want my life to be? Like? When I look back?
Brenton Gowland:Yeah. And it might be different stages, too. So in your in your 20s, a life well lived might look different to what what life well lived in your 30s is like and so on.
Ron Tomlian:Absolutely. Wheelchair, of course it will change is you're at a different lifestyle.
Brenton Gowland:I think the biggest thing out of today's discussion for me is just a reflection piece. So I do reflect on things about once a week I sit down and think What have I done, etc. But I think it's what we reflect on as well. So mine might be, how have I performed for that client? How have I done this, but it's not necessarily looking at that other side of the coin, the life work balance thing I look at my reflection is predominantly on work. So what I'm suggesting is that maybe when we do our reflection, we also need to reflect in those other things. Have I performed in my family life?
Ron Tomlian:How would you approach a problem that you have at work? You do some analysis? Yeah. Now, if you feel that your life is maybe not being lived? Well, then you need to do some analysis and just looking at things like, how do I spend my time? And am I happy with the amount of time and priority that I'm giving the various aspects of my life? Yeah, cool. It's worth going through that process.
Brenton Gowland:Alright. So if you've been listening today, we would highly recommend that you spend some time reflecting, planning and die rising your whole life, not just your work life. So make sure that you get the whole balance there. And that's part of the way we can avoid burning out as business professionals.
Ron Tomlian:And I think we should in future episodes, explore some of those other aspects, some of those specific things like sleep, nutrition, exercise. Yep.
Brenton Gowland:But we've threatened that in the last two episodes, haven't we? We have but
Ron Tomlian:we need to actually do it. About is doing it.
Brenton Gowland:I tried to I tried to find a sleep person and I haven't been able to do it. So we will find someone we've had a couple of leads. So we're trying to find a couple of experts in these areas to bring in talk to everyone. So we will do that over the next few episodes. Fantastic looking for a really good sleep expert that you know, looking forward to I look forward to it as well and have a great fortnight Ryan and for our listeners have a great fortnight we hope you've got something out of today's discussion. And we will talk to you in a couple of weeks.
Ron Tomlian:So it's goodbye from me
Brenton Gowland:and it is goodbye from me.