The Power of Networking with Julia Palmer

Networking is an essential business skill that can have a huge positive impact on your career. It can help you assess your performance, generate new ideas, close deals and grow your business. In today's discussion, our hosts,  Brenton Gowland and Ron Tomlian are joined by Julia Palmer - an expert in networking training. Together, they explore the power of networking and how you can learn to become an expert networker.

Julia Palmer is the Chief Executive of Relatus, who work with individuals and organisations to improve their interpersonal and intrapersonal skills. Julia's expertise includes 20 years of practice and research combined with Advanced Certifications in Neuro-linguistics, Emotional Intelligence (Genos International & MSCEIT), Performance Consulting, Training and Assessment.

By age 25 Julia was the General Manager of a Multi-Million-dollar global organisation, she has built her career by organising and attending thousands of networking events across all industries internationally. Now as CEO of Relatus, Julia helps people position themselves in professional networks and build their relational capabilities to maximise their human advantage.

The topics we cover in this episode are: 

• Networking is a learned skill
• Knowing your purpose for networking guides you and helps you break out of your comfort zone
• Networking Rhythm, Julia's networking methodology
• Dunbars number as a guide to your network size
• Your network is probably bigger than you think
• Etiquette in networking
• Evaluating and managing your network
• Creating touchpoints can help you stay visible to your network
• Julia's recommendation for improving your networking skills
• Julia's three tips about improving your networking results:
  • Tip 1 - Have a networking plan
  • Tip 2 - Prioritise Networking
  • Tip 3 - Follow up

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Transcript

Brenton Gowland: 0:00

Today on The Business Builders podcast, we are talking with expert networking trainer Julia Palmer in the final interview of our effective networking series. Now we have a jam packed episode for you today where we're covering everything from Networking Strategies for individuals through to the critical role networking plays in developing our businesses. So welcome to the Business Builders podcast. We are your hosts. I am Brenton Gowland.

Ron Tomlian: 0:26

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland: 0:27

And Ron, you've been in Kangaroo Island.

Ron Tomlian: 0:29

Yes. Had a wonderful little weekend holiday there sipping the Kangaroo Island wine. Having a fantastic time going to restaurants like the Enchanted Fig. You get to have lunch inside a fig tree is absolutely amazing.

Brenton Gowland: 0:45

Inside an actual fig tree?

Ron Tomlian: 0:46

Yeah, absolutely. Inside a live fig tree. I mean, it's not in the trunk. It's a big foliage, if you look at fig trees is a lots of foliage around. But this thing, well it's actually I suspect a whole bunch of fake trees, and you're sitting inside, next to trunks and so on. Absolutely amazing. And the food. My God, some of the best food I've ever had.

Brenton Gowland: 1:08

Well you have me at food. But that sounds amazing. So if you're listening internationally, and you want to come to South Australia when we're not a travel show, but think about Kangaroo Island, it sounds like a great place. But you missed out on the podcast with Michael Phillips.

Ron Tomlian: 1:22

I did I've listened to it. Fantastic.

Brenton Gowland: 1:25

Yeah, great young man.

Ron Tomlian: 1:26

Yeah, absolutely fantastic guy. And what words of wisdom for such a young man.

Brenton Gowland: 1:31

I know he's a very impressive man, Michael. So again, if you're listening, what we're doing today is we've been running a series called the effective networking series. And today we're bringing it to an end, we've got another guest who will introduce in just a moment. But the reason we've had three guests is we really wanted to draw a parallel for everyone who's listening about defining your purpose for networking, and the way that then affects the way you approach networking. And so we had Paul Kitching that we interviewed just before Christmas. And Paul's purpose for networking was to build relationships at volume. And that affected the way he then approached going out and doing the networking. And then we've had Michael Phillips, who we were just speaking about, and his purpose for networking was to find Well, basically quality over quantity, but he had a methodology he called Networking Synergy. And his whole purpose was to build quality relationships. And it produced two very different approaches to networking. And today, we've got Julia Palmer with us. N ow, just so you know, Julia Palmer is a respected relational strategist, and she's best known for leading the face to face revolution. So her experience includes 20 years of practice, and research combined with advanced certifications in neurolinguistics, emotional intelligence, performance consulting, training and assessment. Blimey Ron! That's, that's pretty impressive.

Ron Tomlian: 2:57

I've seen Julia in action and it changed the lives of a number of my TEC members in terms of their approach to networking. So it's absolutely fantastic to have Julia on the programme.

Brenton Gowland: 3:08

Okay, so just let me finish this bio. By the age of 25, now, this is really impressive. Julia was the general manager of the multimillion dollar global organisation. She's built her career by organising and attending 1000s of networking events across all industries internationally. That's a big effort. And now, Julia is the CEO of Relatus. And Julia helps. What relators does is they help position you in professional networks, and to build your relational capabilities to maximise the human advantage. And I guess that's why I'm really excited to have Julia here with us today. Because she brings a very different perspective to Michael and Paul, because she teaches people how to network and build relationships, to progress their businesses.

Ron Tomlian: 3:56

Which is what networking is all about to my way of thinking.

Brenton Gowland: 3:59

So with that, Julia, it's great to have you join us.

Julia Palmer: 4:02

Thank you both. It's good to be here.

Brenton Gowland: 4:05

So Julia, again, we've just spoken about you a bit, you've got a very impressive bio, do you want to give some of your own words and just talk about a bit of your history so we can get a fuller picture?

Julia Palmer: 4:16

Yeah, certainly, I guess the first thing to think about is did I ever think that at this point, I would be, or I'd I'd end up having a career teaching networking? Absolutely not. It was kind of an accidental career, which fell out of hosting and organising all those events. So my corporate career was with a conference organiser, and we hosted events in all different industry sectors. And it was through going to those events that I really saw the disconnect between people, especially buyers and sellers in the room. Like for example, you'd often have a whole bunch of sponsors, be it in an exhibition, or you know, hosting a cocktail party or a luncheon or something like that, and then you'd have all the delegates. And there was just this awkwardness between the two, which I witnessed for years and years. And, and I saw that, you know, in all parts of the world, so it wasn't just here in Australia. And it, it kind of dawned on me that we are taught all these amazing things when we go to university, and we specialise in all these different careers. But no one really teaches us those social skills or yesterday, we're talking about social polish, you know, how do you actually go around and meet people and start conversations? So it got me really interested in I guess, that dynamic. And then it was a very long time ago, 17 years ago, when I started. And I remember saying to people, this is what I think I can help people with, these skills. And at the time, people were like, No, I don't think that's a thing. And I think people can either network or they can't, and it was a little bit misunderstood that it was based on your personality. So I've spent almost the next two decades, demystifying that myth and really proving that actually, networking is a learnt skill. Every single personality type, every single job title needs it. And in fact, and we'll probably get into this a little bit more hopefully, what's happened over the last couple of years, and the last few years, in particular with the pandemic has just proved even more, why these are the future skills that we need to be investing in. So that's kind of how I ended up here. It was a little bit of an accident, but I'm really glad I'm here.

Brenton Gowland: 6:34

Well sounds like a happy accident to me.

Julia Palmer: 6:36

Yeah.

Brenton Gowland: 6:37

And Ron, from your experience, you coach a lot of CEOs and so forth. What do you kind of think of that whole idea of networking skills that people are needing to learn them?

Ron Tomlian: 6:46

Well, in listening to Julia talk about the skills and the information and knowledge that you get taught at university, and even when you start working, it's so true that some of the most important skills of leadership and of business, that there's not a lot of places to go, I mean, I've done and taught in MBA programmes. And you think, well, that's, that's where I'm gonna get it. And you don't get it. Because the universities, quite rightly will say, Well, that's all very good. But we're not skill developers. We are knowledge and framework enablers. We don't teach skills. And so where do you get those skills, and the only way to get them, quite frankly, is sort of on the job with people who are willing to give you a crack at the benefit of their experience and their knowledge. So it finding out that there are people in their organisations like Julia's that actually help people with this is fantastic.

Brenton Gowland: 7:47

I 100% agree, because I have people asking me all the time about networking and how to improve at it. And seriously, because we we have a lot of younger people who come to us for mentoring or get involved with Business Builders as a discussion like the networking group that we run. So Julia, I think it's vital, what you're doing. And I remember even back when we were when I was running a business, and I realised I had to learn about business development, I thought, gee, there's nothing really there to teach you that either. So I think I went out and found a mentor at the time who could teach me about business development and realised it was a science. So I think in the same way, in a sense, networking is a science. And I love that term, you use social polish.

Julia Palmer: 8:28

Yeah, it's definitely a learned skill. That's one thing that I really want to reiterate to everyone listening and we're all born with social intelligence. But how we develop those skills is through practice, and through what, you know, the, I guess, experiences we have in life all the way from childhood, you know, how much did people talk to us? How much did opportunity do we have for play? All of that develops our social intelligence. And by the time some of us get to career stage, we have fixed views that need to be I guess, un-fixed or, you know, like, obviously

Ron Tomlian: 9:04

Challenged perhaps?

Julia Palmer: 9:04

Challenged. Yeah, that's a good one, I guess. And so the other thing I always say is I've dedicated my career to cleaning up the negative connotation of the word networking.

Brenton Gowland: 9:14

Oh, yeah.

Julia Palmer: 9:15

Because I think, and again, especially in Australia, people just either love it or hate it, you can ask that as a black and white question. And most people will say they hate it. And I just feel like it's very misunderstood. And hopefully we can talk a little bit more about that today as well, because people, once they get their head around it, and learn some great strategies. It can take their career or will take their career. I'll even guarantee that so much further, once you actually apply a dedicated strategy and know what you're doing. And I know we're gonna get more into that purpose in a moment, but it is just really important to understand that people see it as just this thing that they don't want to do. And I guess I've dedicated my career to my making sure that they see it for the benefit that it can bring to them.

Ron Tomlian: 10:04

So, in speaking to that, in our series on networking, we discussed the disciplines that help people become an effective networkers. And the first of those is defining our purpose. Can you talk with us about how important it is to have a purpose for networking? What's your purpose? And how do you help others find theirs?

Julia Palmer: 10:24

So this is a really important question, because a lot of people work for organisations, and the disconnect happens when the organization's purpose is different to their individual purpose. So I see this time and time again, you know, companies spend 10s of thousands of dollars on Association memberships and places that their people can belong to, to go for development to go for networking and benchmarking. So if you, if you look at, I guess, just the bottom line in terms of money spent on some of these networking opportunities, you'll see it's quite a high investment. But then you walk into the room and you see the people representing those companies and their purpose for being there. And the way they're acting is very different to what the company wants out of it. So it is really important to understand your own purpose, but also to align that with the organization's and I guess that's where we do our best work is when we can work with marketers look at where they want to be represented, where do they need visibility, even in terms of like, events that organisations are hosting for clients? I've had people come up to me and say, I sponsored this thing. I took my whole team. And I walked in, and my whole team, were just standing there talking to each other.

Ron Tomlian: 11:43

How often do you see that!

Julia Palmer: 11:45

Every single time you walk into any industry event, and all the people around the room are going to be clustered by their company?

Brenton Gowland: 11:51

Yep.

Julia Palmer: 11:52

So what are they getting out of it? Like I always say to them, if you're going to do that, you may as well just go to the pub yourselves. Why are you wasting corporate money. And you know, some people see these networking opportunities as a bit of a perk, that's, that's fine. But where we have to really come together is understanding what these opportunities are by the organisation. So who's funding them? And then what am I there for? So going back to your question, Ron, about I guess, my purpose, I realised very, very quickly, that if I could, and my reason for networking started with internal networking. So I worked for an organisation that I realised that if I could influence the other departments, then my job would become easier. And so I worked pretty hard at meeting and getting to know some of the people in the other organisations that affected the outcome of my my role. And that kind of sparked a whole new appreciation for me in terms of collaborative working. And this is, by the way, this is 1999. When, you know, we didn't even have computers on our desks, we literally had a phone. So I'd be walking around and I remember distinctly organising social events, we had about 100 people in our office at the time. And we didn't have Friday night drinks. We didn't have any getaways. We didn't do anything to bond all those departments. So I started doing that.

Brenton Gowland: 13:19

Did this come naturally for you?

Julia Palmer: 13:20

Ah, I think it came. So I going back to the personality types. When I did the Myers Briggs thing. I am an introvert. So I don't think so. But I think I am an only child as well. And my parents were travel agents. So going back to that social intelligence learnt part, I think all my life I've been forced to, you know, if we went on holiday, I had to make new friends and meet the other kids at the pool because I had no one else to play with.

Brenton Gowland: 13:48

Yeah.

Julia Palmer: 13:49

So I feel like in my lived experience, I've had to create these opportunities. And I found myself doing that again. So in this situation, I basically had sponsors who needed to get something out of their sponsorship. So for me, the delegate sales team was very important because they needed to get the right delegates there for my sponsor. And the marketing department was really important because they needed to market my sponsor really well with the right logo placement. And the speaking like the production team was very important, because I wanted a really good speaking slot for my sponsor. So you can see how internally, even though I had no operational, like kind of clout over my colleagues, I needed to make sure that my sponsor was well looked after. So the better I got to know those internal contacts, the more I could kind of explain to them why this was important.

Brenton Gowland: 14:41

So it was like a sense of responsibility that was driving you.

Julia Palmer: 14:45

Yeah. To do well for my client, which was external. And then yeah, as I said, at the beginning, I'd go along to these conferences, and then I would see that massive disconnect. So then I'd walk up to the sponsor and be like, come over here, you need to come and meet these people. So then I'd be taking them and networking them because I wanted them to sponsor again. And I wanted them to have a good experience.

Brenton Gowland: 15:05

So what do you think holds people back then? Because you were talking about clumping of staff, right? And I've seen that a million times I remember at one business we were in, we used to turn it into a game, we would say, right, Ask these questions of the people and end of the night, we're going to talk and find out what you got from, you know, you find different ways to do it. But there was always this resistance. So you did do you think it's fear or, or a lack of being taught?

Julia Palmer: 15:30

Yeah, I just think it's comfort zone. Like if I'm going to something, why wouldn't I just want to stand with my colleague? If and this goes back to your question about purpose, right? If I don't know why I'm there, and what's in it for me, and why this is valuable to me in the long term? Why would I bother walking up to that stranger?

Brenton Gowland: 15:46

Yep.

Julia Palmer: 15:47

So I just think, as long as we can align it to purpose, and realise that, hey, if I walk up to that person and initiate a relationship, that might lead to X Y, Z. That's good for me. So I'm going to pull myself out of my comfort zone. And I'm going to go and have that conversation. And yes, we can learn how to do that, obviously. But you have to know why you want to do that in the first place.

Ron Tomlian: 16:11

It's interesting, you say that, because networking is usually associated with representing organisations sales, getting people in, I worked for an organisation once that it was a pseudo government organisation. And by doing some research, we found that people thought that the organisation was poorly managed, simply because of its history. And the type of people who were usually there, we realised that if we got the executives out into professional organisations, and I don't, not not necessarily doing anything else, but just being there, and talking to people, and maybe getting the engineering organisation getting a position on the, on the executive or whatever, that we would get more people to recognise that there were some pretty high fliers in this organisation. So the purpose of networking in that particular case was simply to be seen.

Julia Palmer: 17:10

And, actually, it's such a good strategy, I have seen businesses come from the US and not be able to break into this market because their senior people weren't networked at that board level. So we do really rely very heavily on that trust and understanding of who people are, and seeing them around the table helps us.

Brenton Gowland: 17:31

So physically seeing them seeing on LinkedIn, seeing them in other places. What are your thoughts on that? Because a lot of people, when you say networking, they think events.

Julia Palmer: 17:40

Yeah.

Brenton Gowland: 17:41

How broad is it?

Julia Palmer: 17:42

Yeah, so let's break that down. Networking is an activity. Absolutely. And a lot of people see networking as as that random two hour event that they might go to where we work with our clients is to align networking with their strategic plan or their marketing plan.

Brenton Gowland: 18:01

Which is great.

Julia Palmer: 18:02

So yeah, so that example you just gave about the engineering firm, we've got a client who we started working with over 10 years ago, they didn't have a LinkedIn presence. They'd never run an event client event. They were great at what they were doing, but they were just focusing on the doing. Okay, so we helped them to run their first event, we got their CEO as the president, like, so basically, he joined the committee's, but he ended up as the president of the industry association that they belong to. Now that company has gone from strength to strength to strength, and it's all based on relationships. Now, take it back a step. We're talking about engineers, these are not salespeople. And these are not people comfortable with selling. So the more training we can give them around skill, technique, the how tos, the more comfortable they are to actually go and do this. And yeah, this business has grown so many times over in from what I've seen over the 10 years, and I still work with them today. They're like my proudest achievement, because they really take on what we say and do it really well.

Brenton Gowland: 19:10

That's great. Listen, so it's clear that you know, a lot about networking in the way you're teaching and so forth. So we kind of want to start moving into what's your methodology? What's the methodology you teach for networking? Because obviously, there's different purposes, but what's the methodology you teach? And how does it help the people you work with to achieve their purpose?

Julia Palmer: 19:32

Okay, great question, because I think it really comes down to that human connection. So I probably go against most things you'll read about networking, or most courses you'll see on networking, because I don't actually agree with a lot of the networking training that's out there. Yeah, and that just simply comes from experience of you know, when someone comes up to you and shoves a card in your face and asks you what you do, personally I find that really off putting, I don't want to tell you who I am and what I do, like, Who are you for starters. So I just think networking got a little bit crazy, I think mainly in the 90s, when you know, everyone was out there trying to meet everyone, and we got, I think it just went to transactional and we are not, I'm going to generalise here as an Australian population, when not that type of person. There's other countries, you can get away with that, and that's accepted. But I feel like we're more like Asia when it comes to doing business. And we are very reliant on trust and longer term relationships. And that whole working a room running around collecting cards, it just doesn't work.

Brenton Gowland: 20:42

I agree.

Julia Palmer: 20:43

Hmm. And the and the other thing you've got to remember with with us here, and you guys are Adelaide, I'm Sydney, we are small, you know. So the thing here is you are going to see people again, so you cannot afford to burn bridges, and you cannot afford to turn people off.

Ron Tomlian: 21:01

It's not surprising that you say that, because to my way of thinking, the discussions we've had on this podcast about networking, debunk some of the that teaching that's being done, about shoving cards in people's hands, it is about relationship building, and that doesn't happen by a quick transactional hello, goodbye. We should do lunch some time, with no authenticity in the discussion. So I'm glad to hear that. I'm also, quite frankly, a lot of the content that I put into our discussion was based on what you originally presented to my tech group.

Julia Palmer: 21:44

Okay, I hope I get credit for that.

Ron Tomlian: 21:45

Oh, absolutely.

Brenton Gowland: 21:47

I just want to be the devil's advocate based on what you guys have both just said, we had Paul Kitching on a little while ago, and it's really interesting, because someone came up to me after we did that podcast with Paul, because Paul's all about volume networking, Julia, and it works for him. But I think it comes down to that word that you used earlier, which is authenticity. Because someone came up to me after that podcast and said, Well, Paul just said everything. Everything he said, was basically completely against what you guys were talking about in your podcast. And in a sense, yes, it was. But we're basically both in agreement with you about where your thinking is around networking. It's about building relationships over time and whatnot. But I think it's that authentic part that comes along, because I think Paul goes out, and he doesn't necessarily give out a bunch of business cards, but he takes a lot of business cards, so that he can follow them up. And I think his strategy is, is something that not everyone can do. But there tends to be people who occasionally that stuff works for because they're being their authentic self.

Ron Tomlian: 22:54

And and yeah, I think In Paul's case, it's, yeah, I'm the type of person who could talk to a whole bunch of people. And they feel good. As a result of me having a quick chat with them. And they want to catch up with me later on. He just has that personality.

Brenton Gowland: 23:11

But I don't think many people can do what he does. Have you ever come across people, Julia who can actually do that kind of thing?

Julia Palmer: 23:18

So yeah, yes, I do. But look, for me, the whole, the benefit of networking is you're in front of someone that you wouldn't have access to otherwise. Right. So if you try and cold call someone you're not going to get through. But if we meet them at an event and have a face to face conversation, we are more likely to then be able to follow up. So that's kind of where there's a huge benefit to networking over any other form of marketing, right. And we need to remember that, especially those people at senior levels who are networking more strategically. So I once had, I was speaking at a breakfast in Melbourne, and this woman comes up to me and she says, I've got 6000 people in my network. And I went, Oh, how do you manage 6000 relationships? And she just looked at me blankly.

Brenton Gowland: 24:07

Yeah.

Julia Palmer: 24:08

So I think this also comes down to what are you doing, like a lot of people mistake networking as a mailing list, or, you know, a big contact list. I don't I don't believe that. So for me, networking leads to a network. And that network has to have a cap on it, which means and I use Dunbar's number, so my magic number is 150 like Dunbar and that's all based on brain capacity. Right. So Dunbar proved that we can only humans can only manage 150 relationships at one time.

Brenton Gowland: 24:41

I did not know that.

Julia Palmer: 24:43

Oh, it's fascinating research. And he's they've tried to discredit him over the years with technology and everything. But at the end of the day, if you think about the psychology of how we interact, you can't because humans haven't changed. Our brains haven't changed. So I use his numbers to help guide my clients. So the first thing that we will do is we will actually map your current network.

Brenton Gowland: 25:07

Great.

Ron Tomlian: 25:07

And I've have to say, we talked about that about the importance of starting, because most people, I don't think realise how extensive their network really is, until they put it down on paper.

Julia Palmer: 25:21

Exactly. And do you know, I asked this question of every audience. And most people have never ever, and will go through their entire careers never actually doing this process, never mapping it.

Brenton Gowland: 25:36

Why?

Julia Palmer: 25:37

I don't know, because your starting point is that you already have a network. So I had a lady come to me once for coaching, and she said, I hate networking. But I've just started my business. And she was very senior, she had been very senior leadership levels in corporate Australia. After we mapped her network, I said to her, Well, lucky you, you don't need to network and meet a single soul, you just need to leverage the network you've already got, you know, so networking doesn't mean you have to keep going and meeting strangers and adding them to your network. Real networking, it goes back to the purpose that we were talking about identifying that, and then filling those gaps, you know, creating those opportunities, deepening those relationships. So going back to the methodology question, for me, I see it as I call it a networking rhythm. So you, you basically break it up into three parts, there's the part before you get anywhere, which is your planning, so what we're just talking about there with the mapping the planning, the goal setting, and that's about a third of your effort goes into that at any one time, because that's, that's a constantly changing and evolving process. Then your second stage is, I guess, all the behaviours and how you come across. So this is that creating those two way connections by understanding nonverbal communication and knowing that some things are going to repel people in a room, or knowing how to be more inclusive with your body language, like there are so many conversations that I've ended up having with people, because I've opened up the space for them to come and join us. So there are lots of things you can do in a networking room to make people feel more comfortable.

Brenton Gowland: 27:20

Social polish.

Julia Palmer: 27:21

And have a, Yeah, and have a better experience. Because you want people to gravitate to you, you want people to be able to speak to you, and you want people to remember you positively. So if you're running around collecting cards or giving cards or, you know, giving a talking about elevator pitches, that none of that actually got any depth in my opinion.

Brenton Gowland: 27:41

Oh, I totally agree with that.

Ron Tomlian: 27:43

You know, it's interesting hearing that because one of the things that used to be assumed, and as a because of the hasn't been emphasised in society in general, is the concept of etiquette. And we've gone away from the very formalised etiquettes that used to exist in society, and various hierarchies and tiers of society. We've almost discredited that, without recognising that actually in business, there are etiquettes that people use, but nobody talks about them.

Julia Palmer: 28:20

And do you know what people write themselves really highly as having etiquette. Like, we also assess this. And then in reality, when you observe them, you realise they don't actually understand the etiquette of being in a room or being at a lunch, like the amount of people that don't understand how to pass the bread around the table, or the salt and pepper, all those minut little things that people judge you on which you don't even realise they're judging you on?

Brenton Gowland: 28:44

Yeah.

Julia Palmer: 28:45

Yeah, you're right. That's a whole lost art.

Ron Tomlian: 28:48

But it's interesting, because there's a friend of mine here in Adelaide, who's based his business on teaching young people in particular, business etiquettes just are assumed, but nobody ever talks about, and his business is booming. Yeah.

Julia Palmer: 29:04

Yeah. It's such a lost art. And again, it comes down to those impressions, right? If you don't get this, right, no one's gonna say anything to you at the time. But obviously, they're watching that, and they're seeing that. So if you're invited to a lunch where you're hosting clients, well, you better be careful about how you come across and how they're perceiving you. And all of this makes a huge difference to that perception.

Brenton Gowland: 29:28

Yeah well perception is reality is the old saying, isn't it?

Ron Tomlian: 29:31

Yeah, here in South Australia, if you don't know how to choose a bottle of wine, you're dead in the water?

Brenton Gowland: 29:35

Well, I'm not necessarily so great with choosing the bottle of wine, but I really hear I'm really loving what you're saying, Julio, because I think this is a lot of things people don't think about. And my experience is, you know, the younger generation is coming up, like Ron was saying that that etiquette businesses growing and they're looking for these kind of answers, and maybe that's because they have a different mindset, and they're more open to or thinking about this. I don't know what the answers are, but I think they're looking for these kinds of answers. But then I think us who have been doing business for quite a while now, some of us just assume we already know. So that's why that whole, having a an ability to learn and to be open to learning new, better ways to do things just helps us to keep improving. I think this is great. And I love that Dunbar number. Having a cap on your network. I think that's a really interesting concept. Because just..

Julia Palmer: 30:25

So and I guess I should I should clarify, you can have more in your outer networks and draw them in and out, I didn't have time to really explain it. Like your network can obviously be much bigger in terms of acquaintances, and people you know, but the point of that is, it's anyone you're actually really actively working on should fall into that number.

Brenton Gowland: 30:45

Yeah, see I probably would have put a smaller number on that like about 50. But 150 is interesting.

Julia Palmer: 30:51

There is a circle that's 50. So they, there are concentric circles that go out from five.

Brenton Gowland: 30:58

Okay.

Julia Palmer: 30:58

Come and do a training with me.

Ron Tomlian: 30:59

I think we need to do some training.

Brenton Gowland: 31:01

I think so too. But listen, if you're listening, what's your website URL Julia?

Julia Palmer: 31:06

Relatus, relatus.com.au

Brenton Gowland: 31:09

I'm guessing it's relate to us but relate us.

Julia Palmer: 31:12

Relatus.

Brenton Gowland: 31:13

Is that the meaning behind it?

Julia Palmer: 31:14

Well, no, it's a Latin, it's a Latin word, to relate. And the whole point is that we want to create bonds. So yeah, we went with something a little bit more old school.

Brenton Gowland: 31:25

Yeah. But I'm, like I said, I'm loving this.

Ron Tomlian: 31:27

Now, you talked about having a network already. And it might be up to 150 in that, you know, outer circle. But and more beyond that, apart from building, which is what people often talk about doing. Talk to us about managing the network that you already have?

Julia Palmer: 31:44

Well, this is part three, thank you. So there's three parts to my rhythm. And the third one, which I think is really under performed or under utilised is the managing is the evaluating is the time that you then put in for those relationships. So what we've just witnessed out of the pandemic, those close circles, if we go back to the circle analogy, everyone we were seeing like our immediate team, our friends, family, you know, that we had contact with. All those relationships got stronger over the pandemic, what happened though those more outer relationships, they got weaker, because we didn't have the incidental bump-ins, we didn't see each other at the industry event, we didn't bump into each other at the water cooler. So they're the ones that you actually have to proactively work on. Okay, now I'm gonna go back two steps we were talking about those young people coming through, when you come into the into your career, you actually have a really good network, right. Because you've just come out of university, all those people have now been employed in different jobs, you're still actively social with all those people. So those grads, let's call them or that first point of your career, they're very, very well networked. What happens though, and we've got stats to prove this. as your career progresses, you become more internally focused, which means you lose ties with those professional networks with those colleagues that you used to work with people in industry. Now, the big problem with that is where does, where do your ideas come from? Where does your benchmarking come from? Where does your knowledge sharing come from? If you want to contribute internally to an organisation, you want to be bringing stuff from external. And those professional relationships are the ones that suffer as people get more senior.

Brenton Gowland: 33:37

Yes.

Julia Palmer: 33:38

So part of this going back to your question, Ron, is, when you have a network strategy, you're then putting into place touch points, which is what we would call them to maintain visibility across all your categories, not just clients or not just internal. We're very holistic when we look at a network.

Brenton Gowland: 33:57

Can you give us an example of a touch point just before you go on?

Julia Palmer: 34:00

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So a touch point could be sending an article to someone that's of interest, inviting someone to an event that you think they would also benefit from, like you could, there's dozens.

Brenton Gowland: 34:12

Yeah, that's great, no no no gotcha.

Julia Palmer: 34:13

There's just ways of staying visible to them when you're not necessarily in front of them.

Brenton Gowland: 34:18

Excellent stuff that's really really good.

Julia Palmer: 34:20

And that needs. That's part of the rhythm, right. So and the reason I'm calling it a rhythm is it just has to keep moving. This is not you don't meet someone once and they're in your network. And then that's it. And then 10 years later, you remember them and want to ask them a favour, which happens and doesn't go down well.

Ron Tomlian: 34:37

And in terms of these touch points, you know, one of the things that I hear a lot of people saying is because of COVID, we didn't get out there and we didn't have those incidental meetings or, but technology. A lot of people feel a lot of people I've talked to feel disengaged with technology at times. Can In technology help with those touch points?

Julia Palmer: 35:02

Absolutely. Look, we have global access. Now one thing that this pandemic has given us is access to anyone around the world. And people are very willing to take that meeting via zoom. So I feel like there was some real plus points that come with access and accessibility. And the downsides was the depth that you might get from just that incidental conversation that happens when you're walking towards a lift, you know, all the personal stuff that is missing now from a zoom call, which tends to just get down to business. So I love technology. I think technology is an enabler. But I don't think it's a relationship. And that's where I think we need to be very careful, like people love devices and doing all these things. But remember, where the depth comes from. Is more from that face to face more from the interaction.

Ron Tomlian: 35:51

Yeah, so it can be an enabler, it can be a helper, but it doesn't supplant the need for face to face.

Julia Palmer: 35:58

I think that can I agree, I think so.

Brenton Gowland: 35:59

I think that comes back to your concentric circles, right. Because this has been going through my head while you've been speaking, but you've got that group of 50 that you might be closely working with. And you got to just in my terms, you got another 100 people outside of that he might be you know, you're working out who's going to fit where and whatnot. But that group, in my view, would have people going into and out of it. But outside of that you've got your broader network. So this lady that you spoke to, she said, she's got 6000 people in her network. So I probably have that or more. But I have a very loose connection with those because we follow each other on a social platform, or there's some sort of technological connection. But I just don't know who from that group will move into that 150 over time. So it's still valuable.

Julia Palmer: 36:46

It's definitely valuable. And then that 150 become two way connections, which means I know you, you know me.

Brenton Gowland: 36:53

Yeah.

Julia Palmer: 36:54

Whereas those outer ones, you're right, it's one way. So if you're on LinkedIn with me, you're getting my articles, you're getting my tips, but I'm not necessarily knowing what's going on in your world. So that's still counted as a touch point. But because it's not two way, it's not a relationship.

Brenton Gowland: 37:12

So that thing I was talking about, would you see that 150 people that would change over time, i.e. people going in and out depending on how you progress, how they progress.

Julia Palmer: 37:22

The project you're working on, your next career move, the country you live in, like, look at how many people change cities and countries, they have to start building a whole new network. And that's very common here in Australia. We're constantly seeing so I work with a lot of academic researchers from universities, they've got networks back in their countries, they're developing new ones here. So again, that's a very active plan, because it's got to be relevant to what you're working on at the time.

Brenton Gowland: 37:50

Yep. So I just got a, we've been talking a long time, and I got a feeling that Julia we could talk, this is really good stuff, like really good. And it's valuable.

Julia Palmer: 37:59

Can we talk forever.

Brenton Gowland: 38:00

We can talk for a long...

Julia Palmer: 38:01

I love this subject.

Brenton Gowland: 38:02

We can we can come back to this, I think we could do more on each of these bits and pieces with the next series we're going to be doing is on marketing, because there's a massive marketing changes coming this year. And we really want Business Builders. So the whole premise of our podcast is we're talking to people who want to improve and progress because if we improve and progress, our businesses improve in progress, because oftentimes, the leaders are the caps on the business. So we want the leaders to keep growing. And so we want to talk about that marketing thing. But I think even this whole concept of networking, and building stakeholder relationships with your clients, it comes into marketing, it's all very relevant. My point...

Julia Palmer: 38:42

This has to, this has to tie with marketing. So sometimes people come to me and they went I need help with networking. And I say, what's your marketing plan? You really have to tie them together.

Brenton Gowland: 38:52

Yep. We'll get onto that later. But we want to finish with two questions. And I think I think, Ron, we should have Julia back.

Ron Tomlian: 38:59

Oh, I'd love to.

Brenton Gowland: 39:00

Yeah. And Julia, we should have Julia back.

Julia Palmer: 39:03

I'd love to.

Brenton Gowland: 39:03

Cool. So the last two questions are all about, well, two things. I'll ask this one, if we wouldn't rank ourselves today, because a lot of people will be listening to this stuff. And we go back to that fear point where we've got clustering staff, or how do I, how do I break out of my comfort zone? How do I do this? So if we were to say I'm a four out of ten, when it comes to networking, or a five out of ten? How would you recommend people go about improving themselves? So if they recognise that they're there in that cluster zone, or they're, they're starting to progress like you were. How do you recommend people improved from the point they're at now?

Julia Palmer: 39:39

Just small steps. So if you're going to something next week, go and meet that one new person, just break down your goals. Make sure that they're manageable and and you're comfortable with it. As you get better at it. You can increase your activity, and as you see more rewards from it, you're going to want to increase your activities. So it's just about getting that confidence to go in there and start the conversations. But obviously this, like, like I said, there's a lot of technique to it. So please read up what you can. I think most of my blogs have like five tips and ten tips, all of that kind of stuff. So there's, there's plenty of stuff on our website, if you just want some refreshers, just to get your headspace and we didn't talk about headspace yet. But that negative self talk, that's what stops most people. So we really need to tell ourselves that what I do is valuable, and what I can bring to people is of interest. So I'm going to go out there and meet some people that might be interested in that.

Brenton Gowland: 40:42

So just how did you improve yourself? How did you, you gave us a story of where you started? How did you start recognising where you're at with networking, and then benchmarking yourself and improving yourself.

Julia Palmer: 40:53

So I'm really selective. So I kind of over the years, I was like, Oh, I really want to work with that company. How do I get through to them? Well look their CEO speaking at this thing I'll go along. So I guess for me, it was just being very strategic. And then knowing that I firmly believe I can help people develop these skills. So I guess part of it is, again, that first question that we talked about purpose, like I don't have a problem telling you what I do, because I'm proud of what I do. And I think it is valuable. So within when I meet people, I'm happy to share that. Do I do it in a way that salesy and pushy? Absolutely not. Sometimes you it might take you six months for me to tell you what I do. So I will judge that based on the conversation and what's going on. So definitely, I tell people, when they're networking to, you know, have conversation starters, they don't have to be about the two of you. It can be about the topic, the industry, the speaker, what where you're at? Because the main goal here is to create a connection. Yeah. Unless you've got a connection, no one's going to want to work with you anyway. So this, it does take work, as the name networking suggests, I guess. And you've got to be patient enough to know the timings of when you ask for things and when you don't.

Brenton Gowland: 42:12

Yeah. Social intelligence yet again.

Julia Palmer: 42:15

Yeah, this is this is a process. It's not you don't just pay 50 bucks, go to an event and get a client. There's a lot more to it than that. But I guess the key thing, though, and so we measure this, we know that 84% of people do not have a networking strategy.

Brenton Gowland: 42:32

Yeah.

Julia Palmer: 42:33

That's my parting advice. Have a plan, know why you're there. You know, develop your skills. Because if you go in there not knowing what you want, who you want to talk to what you want out of this, you are not going to get anything.

Ron Tomlian: 42:47

Okay. On that point, you've given us one, which is get your strategy together. Our podcast is all about giving practical advice to business leaders and aspiring business leaders. So give us two more, two more tips that people can walk away with. One was develop your strategy and have one.

Julia Palmer: 43:08

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 43:09

Two more.

Julia Palmer: 43:09

Do you know what I'm going to be really pushy. On the next one, you need to prioritise this, I am so sick of hearing that people are too busy to go to these things that they don't have the time. At the end of the day, there's all the research out there that proves how powerful networking is to your business and your career. If you can't make two hours a month or two hours, even a quarter to go and do something that's going to help you. Well, you need to rethink your positioning. So for me, the next one is about prioritising this, you need to go for those coffees. And it doesn't have to be networking, by the way. It could be a coffee or a lunch or a catch up.

Brenton Gowland: 43:47

That's just the thing. It is networking. I think the connotation of networking is so wrong. Networking is building relationships.

Julia Palmer: 43:56

Exactly.

Ron Tomlian: 43:57

And number three?

Julia Palmer: 43:58

Well, we've kind of put plan into strategy, I guess. So I think the biggest three would be the follow up. You can't meet someone once and expect something. Like I once it took me six weeks and lots of different types of follow up. I sent a handwritten card, I phoned, I emailed and this is someone who said to my face that they really wanted to talk about this further. So I felt like I had permission to keep following up. And then finally when we did get together, and it took a good six weeks, she thanked me. She said do you know what? You're, I really appreciate your perseverance. This is what's happened these last few weeks. And most people would have just given up and I'm glad you're here.

Brenton Gowland: 44:43

That's great.

Julia Palmer: 44:44

I do think persistence and just knowing again, I'm not in a pushy way. But if someone said to you, they're interested. Well, it's up to you then to follow up and make that happen.

Brenton Gowland: 44:54

I think the key thing you said there was she gave you permission because she actually said that, Yeah, I want I want to know about this. And when when people do that, then you do have permission to go in. And you've just given us a great example that sometimes we're helping people because they get caught up in life and prioritise things. And if you keep chasing them, you will come up higher on their priority list.

Julia Palmer: 45:16

And that's exactly what happened. And I was so glad she thanked me because I was starting to wonder on that one. But um, I just kept in the back of my mind that thing that no, we got along really well, we met once, you know, we've had a face to face conversation at a conference. And I just felt like, I'm gonna keep going. And I'm glad I did. We ended up working together for years. We're still friends. Yeah. So persistence would be my third.

Brenton Gowland: 45:39

Look Julia. It's been amazing talking to you. And like we were just saying, I think we will have you back and potentially regularly just to get some of these points across that we didn't have time to talk about today. Any parting thoughts, Ron?

Ron Tomlian: 45:51

No, I just a pleasure reconnecting with you. And maybe we're doing networking as we speak now.

Julia Palmer: 45:57

We are. Thanks, Ron. Thank you, Brenton, I really appreciated being here.

Brenton Gowland: 46:00

No worries. And thank you, everyone for listening to this live networking session. And we hope you're enjoying their business builders podcast. We will be back in two weeks. And we'll be starting our marketing series for this year. Just on the marketing series. We're going to be talking to business leaders about marketing. We're not going to be talking about how to do little bits of marketing. We're going to talk about how to lead marketing and make marketing a priority in our businesses. So?

Ron Tomlian: 46:25

It's goodbye for me.

Brenton Gowland: 46:26

And it's goodbye for me. Have a great week.

Julia Palmer: 46:28

And goodbye from me.

Brenton Gowland: 46:30

Bye everyone.