It Affects Us All: The Big Shift in the Marketing World

In this first episode of Season 3 of the Business Builders Podcast, we'll be Giving You an Overview of What to Expect This Coming Year. We Explore the Big Shift That's Coming to the Marketing World, Talk About the Rise of AI, and Discuss the Benefit of Considering Multiple Perspectives. This is an episode not to be missed.

The topics we cover in this episode are: 

• About Business Builders
• What we read over the break
• Changes coming to marketing this year
• Our theme for this year
• 2023 is looking like the year we will embrace AI
• What you can expect from Business Builders in 2023

Adapt_CO
Helping businesses find their new shape.

SA Business Builders
Business leaders social group based in South Australia

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Transcript

Brenton Gowland: 0:02

Today is our first day back from holidays on the business builders podcast. And we're discussing some of the changes that are coming in 2023 and why they will require us to focus more of our efforts on marketing. Well, welcome back to the Business Builders podcast. It has been a great holiday and a great break. I am Brenton Gowland.

Ron Tomlian: 0:26

And I'm Ron Tomlian.

Brenton Gowland: 0:27

And it's great to be back in the chair. Isn't it Ron?

Ron Tomlian: 0:29

Fantastic. It feels so comfortable.

Brenton Gowland: 0:33

That's great. Well, look, we hope you've been having a really good break. And we would imagine that just about everyone is back at work by now getting stuck into this new year. And I've had a very busy January with work. So that's been excellent. How's your January been Ron?

Ron Tomlian: 0:48

I was hoping it wouldn't be but it never turns out that way. So look, I can't complain about the time I've had off. It was wonderful, reflective, but back into it with boots on.

Brenton Gowland: 0:59

Yeah, I'm encouraged by the amount of activity that I'm seeing around the traps, looks like this year is going to be a very busy year, we have obviously now. Well and truly out of COVID. I know that COVID is going to play a role in the way the future looks for a lot of people. But businesses are having to think differently now is what I've been finding.

Ron Tomlian: 1:20

And there's there's a hangover from from the COVID days, in terms of people being unsure about how they're going to manage staff expectations associated with staying at home working from the office, all sorts of things that have changed, you know that they used to talk about the new normal. And unsurprisingly, the new normal is all about change.

Brenton Gowland: 1:46

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 1:46

We'll talk about that later I think.

Brenton Gowland: 1:48

Indeed, we will. So look what we thought we'd do for everyone. And we're hoping again, like we said that you had a good break, and you've come back refreshed. We'll talk about what we've done on our break, because we'd like you to get some insights into what we've been doing and what we're going to be doing for this year. But Ron and I have decided that we really need to practice what we preach. So we've been doing the last probably three weeks strategic planning for the podcast.

Ron Tomlian: 2:13

Yes, it's a wonderful thing to put yourself into the role that I often ask clients to be in and think strategically about what we're doing. It's refreshing to be able to think what is going to add value to people in the next year. And really start to get locked down some of these things like we talked about business builders, what is a business builder? Indeed. So we've had to cross some of those bridges, not just talking about it is a term but actually gets a very clear about what we mean as a business builder. So Brenton, let me ask you the question, what's the business builder?

Brenton Gowland: 2:51

Well, just to be clear, Ron, and I sat down and we pushed this question around, tossed it around a little bit between the two of us when we sat down to do our strategic planning. And what we've come up with is this. A business builder is someone who develops themselves in order for their business to grow. And we talked about the fact that our purpose on this podcast is to coach leaders and aspiring leaders to become Business Builders. That's what we're trying to do with this podcast.

Ron Tomlian: 3:18

And it's a it's a worthy cause, I think,

Brenton Gowland: 3:22

Yeah, we were talking about the fact that because again, we've been doing some soul searching like, for us, the podcast has been really interesting, just so everyone knows, it's it's been the first year was kind of okay. And last year, our numbers went up significantly. And we thought, well, we, again, better practice what we preach, and really start thinking strategically about what we're going to do with the podcast this year, in order to give you, the listener, the best value possible from the material that we're putting out. And I know that because during the break, I listened to a bunch of podcasts, and I really got the most out of podcasts that were really well organised, where people had a clear mission. And were being able to share the kind of information that I wanted to hear, which we'll talk about in a moment. But we tossed around this idea of what a business builder was. And again, we came up with this definition that a business builder is someone, or is you out there who's listening to us, because we're assuming that you want to listen to us because you want to develop yourself, because developing ourselves is the only way we can really get our businesses to grow because the cap on a business is usually the leadership or the people who are in the business who's who aren't going to take risks, because they're just going to stick with their role. So we tossed around, you know, what are the roles in the business and we'll define this a bit better, but we thought there's a business builder who we're talking to, then there's people who maintain businesses, business maintainers. Then there's people who get on board with doing the vision, and we call them the business do'ers. But we also talked about the fact that sometimes there's business detractors as well those people in a business who, unfortunately, pull others down around themselves who can become problems,

Ron Tomlian: 5:00

The proverbial ball and chain.

Brenton Gowland: 5:02

Indeed. So we very clearly are going to talk to the business builders, not the other three audiences. But we will discuss those other three audiences throughout the year. Because if you're a builder, you need to make sure that you've got the building blocks in place. So those people who will maintain the business, make sure they're not going to, you're not going to go bankrupt, make sure that you're going to be making the margins that you need to make, make sure that your business is on track. And then you got those people out there, who are who are doing the vision, making things happen. And us, you who's listening to us, ourselves, we're the people who look to grow the business. So again, we got to grow ourselves. And that's what we're all about.

Ron Tomlian: 5:48

And I think there's plenty of research that supports the fact that businesses follow the leaders direction.

Brenton Gowland: 5:56

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 5:57

And that's by example. So if you want to grow the business, you've got to grow yourself.

Brenton Gowland: 6:02

Yep. So in our business plan, this year, we put a fair few things in place, we've both Ron and I are going to do professional development, again, practice what we preach, we've decided that we're going to sign up for some international groups to learn more about our craft, and how to grow community and so forth. So we're going to be developing ourselves as well. And we invite you to come on this journey with us, we will talk to you about exactly what we're doing so you can get insights into what we're doing. And we will open up the ability for you to share with us this year, what you're doing, you're gonna have to give us a few months, because we're going to, at some point this year, develop a website, we're going to, in the next couple of months, make sure that there's an easy way for you to contact us via email and so forth in the beginning, but we're going to develop a way to have communication with you our listener as well.

Ron Tomlian: 6:51

Yes, because we what we want to know, what is the adding value? We've got some inputs? Yep. We're not flying completely blind. But the more we get from other people who do listen, the more we can structure value for you guys.

Brenton Gowland: 7:07

Agreed. So just a bit more about our break. There's this saying that leaders are readers. And we want to suggest that business builders are readers as well. Now readers, doesn't mean you just have to read books, I consumed a lot of podcasts that I've never listened to. I went searching for them during the break, because I wanted to just get a vibe for what's going on around the traps around the world. And locally. So I think there's a term for that. It's called Glocal global and local. It's one of those terms that came up a few years back. I remember I thought that's just funny. Yeah, don't don't confuse it with the glycol and it can be dangerous. Fair enough. But I've been listening to some podcasts from the UK, from the States and from Australia. And just to get a view on what people think we'll talk about that in a minute. But, Ron, what have you been reading during the break?

Ron Tomlian: 7:53

Well, it's interesting. I like to expose my mind to all sorts of new ideas. But one of the things I did this year, was spent some time reading a book I read last year, which is Eckhart Tolle's the New Earth, or A New Earth. And I think reflection is an important and underrated activity. So going back, having exposed yourself to a new idea, and then reflecting on it, and re-evaluating it, I think is a great thing. So I read Eckhart Tolle's a New Earth again, I've read Ally Nitschke's, Rise of the Courageous Leader.

Brenton Gowland: 8:34

Yeah, cool.

Ron Tomlian: 8:35

Which is fantastic. So you know, just in a very short time already starting to get stuck into expanding the realms that I'm considering. So that that's what I've been up too. What about you?

Brenton Gowland: 8:47

Yeah, just before we do any of those two, would you recommend to anyone to read this year in particular?

Ron Tomlian: 8:54

Absolutely. Especially, Eckhart Tolle. You've got to be in the right frame of mind for it, and you have to be I supose at the right stage of development. It's not your it's not a book for everyone. But it certainly is one that I think takes a spiritual bent.

Brenton Gowland: 9:10

Yes.

Ron Tomlian: 9:11

Without being religious. Which is something that I've always been on about no offence to any religions. And in fact, if you read the book, Eckhart talks about a lot the basis of religions and incorporates those concepts into his view.

Brenton Gowland: 9:28

Okay.

Ron Tomlian: 9:29

And Ali's book is fantastic as well, because it in in emphasises in a very easy to read format, the importance of emotional intelligence, social intelligence, relational intelligence, into the role of the leader. And and that takes courage, hence her title Rise of the Courageous Leader.

Brenton Gowland: 9:49

Good. And as for me, it's very interesting that you talked about that whole religious bent because I listened to I haven't physically read a book but audiobooks. So I had two things I did during the break. I've been working on my fitness. So I've been doing 10,000 steps a day. And during the break, I was doing 12 to 16,000 steps a day. And yes, I lost three kilogrammes. Cool. Now I just gotta keep that running. But a, you know no inference there that I'm going to run, I'm going to keep walking. But I listened to Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules For Life. So just, I think it was November, he was here in Adelaide. And we went to that. And that's the first time I've ever heard of the man, so, and a lot of people have been talking about him. So I thought I'd listen to this book. And a couple of things I discovered. He talks a lot about religion. And if you're prepared to deal with that the book is quite good. So.

Ron Tomlian: 10:43

And lobsters I believe.

Brenton Gowland: 10:44

Yeah, he's got an obsession with lobsters. But the one thing that really struck me and it was one of the bits and pieces he was talking about, and that really hit me from his book, is he has this saying, I think I've got it right is it takes a tribe to form a mind. And I really, really liked that. Because it just reinforces that fact. So that we have mentors around us, we have people that speak into us, and it's really healthy. I had this meeting with a client the other day that we're launching a brand shortly. And it was a staff meeting. And we had not so much a disagreement, but a heated discussion during that meeting. And it worked really well. And at the end of the day that the person running the meeting came to me and said, I love meetings like that, because we get stuff done. And I was like, Yeah, we do. And, you know, I made sure I asked that. Was everyone in the meeting comfortable with the level of discussion that we had. And this person said, yes, they were. And it just reminded me that it was robust and different opinions, that got us to a really good place by the end of the day. And when it takes a tribe to form a mind. So it takes those robust discussions, in some instances, more comfortable discussions, different points of view, to form a balance with us. And it really stuck with me. And it's so even doing this podcast, if you're listening, you're committed to getting different viewpoints. And that is so healthy and very helpful to form your thoughts, your psyche, the way you approach a thing. So I really encourage everyone to really get a lot of different viewpoints. And of course, then have that central structure of people around you who usually you can count on one hand advisors and people that really do us well. So that was the Jordan Peterson book. But then as I said to you, there was one other book I started reading as well, which was very helpful. And that's called Tiny Habits by BJ Fogg. And it's different to Atomic Habits, if anyone's come across that, but

Ron Tomlian: 12:42

James Clear's book. Yes.

Brenton Gowland: 12:43

Yeah. So tiny habits is much more focused on designing behaviours that are really easy to do. And I have found it particularly helpful because I just did one thing that was suggested, and my sleep has been intermittent, I don't, I go to bed late at night and wake up early in the morning. So get a few hours sleep, but it can be broken. And I've discovered a very simple method of getting a full night's sleep very quickly. And people are gonna laugh when I tell you. But my tiny habit is that I take my mobile phone and put it on the charger in my lounge room. So it's nowhere near my bedroom. And lo and behold, I have a normal alarm clock in my room, not a phone or a computer. And I fall asleep almost immediately, and wake up once in the morning. Like, for some reason, when I have my phone in my room, I would wake up two or three times a night and check it. I don't know if it's psychological, I thought, you know, maybe I got sleep apnea or something. Nope, I got the phone out of the room. And instantly, I'm sleeping all the way through. It's a very simple thing. But boy.

Ron Tomlian: 13:49

It just goes to prove the point that leaders often know what to do. They just don't do it. Because I remember you seeing Sven Hanson, from New Zealand about, oh, three years ago. And he talked about just that. You want to get a better night's sleep. Take the phone out of the room. And it's interesting, isn't it that you heard that three years ago.

Brenton Gowland: 14:11

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 14:12

And you're only doing it now because it's actually working?

Brenton Gowland: 14:14

And I feel like it's the first time I've heard I remember that as well. It's, I think, because my attitude had opened up like, and this whole thing of digesting books, whether it's audio books or in real life, business builders are readers, right. Because I develop themselves. So I started with the walking and it made a complete difference, thinking clearer, getting things done faster. And then what I was listening to Tiny Habits, Tiny Habits really helped me because of the way the the gentleman who wrote the book had a real problem with his voice. I won't like a problem that caused other people to look at him in a strange way. You know, what's wrong with your voice kind of deal. I won't go into details I'll let that you discover it for yourself. But the way he approached things is he was looking to change himself. And he's a clinical psychologist. So he did the studies and whatnot, and came up with a very simple method of what works for habits. And his whole premise was do things you like, don't don't try to create habits you don't like. So yeah, I would really recommend Tiny Habits. It's a book that, for me, it's been helpful. I'm only halfway through it. And I'd also recommend Jordan Peterson's book. As long as you're aware. He is a very Christian, religious speaker. So he talks about God a whole bunch, he does present other religions and so forth. But you either love him or hate him because Jordans very opinionated, but I liked the fact that he's stirring things up a little bit. And that's not a bad thing. So.

Ron Tomlian: 15:42

Yeah, I think that there's no question there's a role for the provocateur challenging thinking, and hopefully, in some ways, we're doing that as well, by getting people to think about what they're doing the way they're doing it.

Brenton Gowland: 15:55

Yep.

Ron Tomlian: 15:56

Maybe providing some guidance, but at the same time, doesn't mean that we've got it right.

Brenton Gowland: 16:01

No.

Ron Tomlian: 16:01

It means that we'd like you to think about the things we're talking about. And this is where we're looking for more feedback and mechanisms to make it easier for people to give us feedback. Because the contrarian view is often the one that will get people to do things differently. And it's probably a good segue into where we see things going this year.

Brenton Gowland: 16:23

Correct. And what I'm hearing from you is, is hearing people that have different points of view to you is a good thing. So it's back to that.

Ron Tomlian: 16:30

Absolutely.

Brenton Gowland: 16:30

It takes a tribe to form a mind. So all sorts of different viewpoints. So where are we going for this year. And look, this has come out of discussion Ron and I have been having, but also things we've been doing. So I've been listening to a series of podcasts. And I've also been paying attention to what's been going on. But there's a couple of major things that are going to happen this year. One thing and it's funny, because I've been talking to people from different businesses, from young and funkies through to people who have been in business for years and, and not a lot of people are aware of this. But if you listen to marketing podcasts and commentators around the world, everyone's talking about this, and this is the fact that in July this year, cookies are going to be no more. Now, you might not think much of it. But that means third party data. So third party data is where we get gather data from external sources that then help us to target customers that fit a certain profile. So cookies will gather information about where you go on the Internet, what decisions you make you visit website, ABC and D. And this is your path. And this is what you're clicking on. This is what you like, these are the kinds of products and we get those follow me ads. And we people are able to target us in different ways, and even potentially, with our email addresses in certain instances. But that third party data is going to be no more right. So and I'm not the technical expert, but I understand that. I don't know how Google ads is going to change. But I know that from listening to different sources that Google Analytics is certainly going to change in the fact that the way analytics are done now is not the way they're going to be done in the future. So everyone's talking about this thing called GA4. So Google Analytics for now, the interesting thing is, that's going to track the interactions of your visitors on your website. But no more are you going to have a history. Their going to cut off any data after 14 months. So you're not going to be able to have year by year comparisons about how you're doing and what you're doing, and so forth. So you got to focus more on the now. Although what is going to happen is Google is going to now start charging for you to keep data. So there will be options for you to keep data beyond 14 months, in archive, but you're going to have to pay for it. And so there's a number of different things to talk about here. Without getting into the technicalities, the way we do marketing is going to change and all the marketers that I'm listening to globally and how preaching community community community. You need to have control of first party data first party data, is basically you've got people's email addresses, you've got their details, you are having a conversation with them, they are happy to receive your material, they have opted in, not opted out. So that's going to become more important than ever, because reaching. You will be out of reach, in my view, larger audiences. But you're going to have to pay a premium to be able to do that. So you really going to have to build a tech stack where you're going to potentially have other CRMs or other mechanisms and technologies to provide you what used to be freely available. So the free ride is now over. And what I'm hearing is people are saying, well, we need to get back to marketing the way it used to be and they're not talking about going out door knocking or sending letters and they're talking about building relationships and building community. So there's going to be a huge focus this year on a shift in marketing.

Ron Tomlian: 19:59

And to a large extent, I think the theme for us this year, as we emerge from the fog of lockdowns and restrictions, not just here but around the world is it's going to be it's, you know, we all look forward to a world where COVID was controlled. And we're over the worst of it. Man, it's a brave new world well is a brave new world with a whole bunch of new challenges. And some of those challenges need to be understood. And some of those challenges need a different response. Because the world has moved on from pre COVID. It's not going to go back. There might be some principles that reemerge. But it's not going to go back. And that's that's going to be a big theme for us this year.

Brenton Gowland: 20:46

Yeah, I agree. Marketing is going to be a huge theme. So when you talk about what the role of a CEO or a leader is, we talk about these three things. So they're the chief visionist. Chief Visionary.

Ron Tomlian: 20:59

Chief strategist, I like to call it.

Brenton Gowland: 21:01

Cheif strategist, what's the second one?

Ron Tomlian: 21:02

Chief Sales Officer.

Brenton Gowland: 21:04

Chief Sales Officer, and third one?

Ron Tomlian: 21:06

Chief teambuilder.

Brenton Gowland: 21:07

Chief teambuilder.

Ron Tomlian: 21:07

And this is all courtesy of a guy called Dan Wurttemberg in the United States, back in the 90s.

Brenton Gowland: 21:13

Yep, but we're really focusing on number two, that Chief Sales Officer, right. So sales really encompasses marketing and thinking about your community, and psychographics, and, and all of the things that come with understanding your audience, or building community. So this year's focus for us is going to be that second pillar of those three things that we say the CEO is responsible for. And it's really a focus on making sure that you've got an understanding of who you're selling to, and how to sell to them, at the basic level. And look at a couple more examples of things. And you'd be under a rock if you haven't heard about Chat GPT. So the AI influence in the tools that are coming through, are going to come thick and fast right. Chat GPT has taken the world by storm in a very short amount of time. So we got Flinders University here, who's one month after it's been released, have approved students to use chatty GPT for their assignments, as long as they use it in a correct way. So the universities are going to focus on teaching people how to use Chat GPT.

Ron Tomlian: 22:19

I'm going back to lecturing because the students from overseas are back on track.

Brenton Gowland: 22:23

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 22:24

And back coming back to our shores. And that's a huge topic of conversation in the academic world. But the truth of the matter is, it raises the question, have some of the things that we've been doing as the forms of assessment, now that these are available, are they valid anymore? Getting people to regurgitate facts.

Brenton Gowland: 22:43

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 22:44

And not string them together. Which things like Chat GBT can do quite well, in fact, better than most of us. Is that a valid way of assessing people's understanding and their capabilities in a certain area?

Brenton Gowland: 22:57

These are no easy questions moving forward. Because back on the Flinders University thing, if you're listening internationally, we got three major universities here in Adelaide, Flinder's is one of them. And so they announced one week that they're approving use of students to use Chat GPT, less than a month later, the failed someone for using Chat GPT to write an assignment. But I think what the context of that was, is they just let them the AI write the whole thing. What you've got to do with AI. So I've embraced AI. I actually really love it. I've been using it for writing website copy, and I'm building a website with a client at the moment. And we experimented, I used a different system called Jasper AI. So it's a commercial version of, well it's not a version of Chat GPT is built on different models, and you have to brief the system and develop it. What I've found so far, is that I guide it to write almost paragraph by paragraph because I find that if it writes whole big stretches out, it can be okay. But it starts to wander off into a strange place. So you have to brief it like you would a creative you have to deal with the AI like it's a person sitting next to you that you're guiding. And if you don't do that, you're not going to get a great result. But very quickly, that's going to develop. And so I would encourage people to start playing with it.

Ron Tomlian: 24:18

I was just going to say that, you know, again, that different perspective. There's a lot of people who are putting up the stop sign saying, Oh, this isn't right. But the truth of the matter is you can't you know, King Canute, you cannot stop the sea from coming in. In the same way. It's it's more of a case of understanding this stuff, understanding its limitations, understanding where it's going, and how can how can I use it?

Brenton Gowland: 24:43

Yeah.

Ron Tomlian: 24:43

How can I embrace it?

Brenton Gowland: 24:45

And I, I've had conversations with journalists a little while ago and the gentleman here who was head business writer for The Advertiser, and now The News based out of Sydney I think he is now but he was saying we're going to be out of jobs in 10 years, and he said the chat bots are going to take over, like the artificial intelligence is going to write all our articles. And he told me that in the States at the moment, a lot of the little league sports articles are being written entirely by AI and have been for a few years now. No, not too many people are necessarily aware of that. But what it does is it takes the commentators, commentary turns into obviously text, digests all of that mixes it with a whole bunch of things includes some colour by analysing different writing styles and produces an article and you wouldn't know, very often you wouldn't know.

Ron Tomlian: 25:36

And what that you know, that has the potential to make a whole bunch of people who have been doing boring work, writing, boring copy in a bad way, liberate them to be more productive, and more creative. I think, you know, the potential is enormous. It's not a negative thing.

Brenton Gowland: 25:55

No, I'm very much for it. And anything that makes our lives easier makes us be able to achieve what we need to achieve. I think people should experiment with it before they get scared of it. But what I will say is, don't ignore it, because it's going to be here quicker than you can imagine. So just think of that timeframe. Chat GBT, I think it came out in November, December last year, was released. Obviously, that's with a whole bunch of people Elon Musk's names attached to it. It's a free platform at the moment because they're using it as a database to learn. But I think the data that it's learning from is a bit older. So I think it's from before 2020. So you can't rely on chat GPT to give you solid facts, because it's not necessarily up to date. That's my understanding. I think there's some warnings that it's got written all over it. I'm not entirely sure. I think platforms like Jasper and has a bunch of them might be slightly different. Interesting thing about Jasper, what was the AI in the Marvel series? What did they call that?

Ron Tomlian: 26:57

You got me?

Brenton Gowland: 26:58

Oh, what was his name? I might have to research this. In Marvel Universe. Let's see how quickly I can get that up on Google. Javis. There ya go.

Ron Tomlian: 27:10

Alright.

Brenton Gowland: 27:10

I just did a live.

Ron Tomlian: 27:11

So that was in Iron Man.

Brenton Gowland: 27:12

That's right.

Ron Tomlian: 27:13

Okay.

Brenton Gowland: 27:14

So they used to call it Javis. So read up, and then they realised that Marvel might have a bit of a problem with it. As they started to get more popular and they renamed themselves to Jasper AI.

Ron Tomlian: 27:24

Okay. So there you go. That's the origin of the name Jasper.

Brenton Gowland: 27:28

Yeah. So there you go. I'm not giving them a plug. I'm just giving you some information about them. But I again back to that point. I think leaders, business builders need to explore these things, not be afraid of these things because it's coming whether you like it or not.

Ron Tomlian: 27:42

So an exciting year ahead Brenton.

Brenton Gowland: 27:45

Indeed. So as we said, our focus is going to be marketing this year. What we're going to do over the next couple of weeks, we had Paul Kitching do an interview last year at the end of our Effective Networking series. And his purpose when we talked about effective networking, if you will listen to the last about six episodes from last year, if you just joining us fresh, it was on effective networking. And we wanted to interview a couple of people who had different purposes for networking. So we discussed in I think Episode One that defining your purpose for networking is vitally important to set the pattern about where you want to go. And Paul's purpose for networking was building relationships at volume, because that's what he wanted to do. So we want to interview a couple of other people just to round out that series at the start of the year, who have different purposes, for networking, just to bring a bit of balance to that. And then we're gonna get stuck into marketing. And we'll take you on our journey with us as we put our strategy into action, and let you know how we're doing that just to give you some insights and so forth along the way to make our journey transparent with you. Because as a listener, we think that sharing what we're doing helps other people grow.

Ron Tomlian: 28:57

Absolutely. And so I'm looking forward to the year ahead.

Brenton Gowland: 29:01

Yeah, it's gonna be an exciting year and I'm pretty excited to be back.

Ron Tomlian: 29:05

Yes, it feels as I said, it feels very comfortable.

Brenton Gowland: 29:08

Feels like we've had a break.

Ron Tomlian: 29:10

Yeah. And that's always energising so, it's goodbye from me.

Brenton Gowland: 29:14

And it's goodbye from me and we'll talk to you within a couple of weeks.